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Hartley Holton Tower Speakers - Help and Advice

BigRiver

BigRiver

Member
Hi,
I am looking at a set of Hartley Holton Tower speakers locally and can find VERY little to almost no information on them. I did reach out to Richard Hartley and even he didn't really have anything on them. He informed me that

"We did not manufacture many Holton Towers....it was considered a very custom
item, therefore I do not have specs to share with you."

I know that the white comes are or should be the famed Hartley 220msg drivers and the tweeters are a modified phillips tweeter but I can find nothing about the woofers and if they are even original to the cabinet design. I have tried to contact the seller for driver model numbers and have not yet heard back.

Richard told me that

"The speakers with black cones do not appear to be Hartley's. If you purchase the
speakers I would consider rewiring and updating the crossovers."

I am curious if anyone has owned, heard or knows anything about these? They're not cheap and are BIG over 50" tall so shipping a set in the future in addition to the cost (if they ever come up again) would be an obstacle for sure.

Thanks for any thoughts or advice.

The brown cabinets are the items I am looking at, the white is the ONLY other example I have been able to find and while the tweeters and the full range drivers are the same the woofers appear different?s-l1600.jpgHARTLEY2.jpeg
 
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I've been digging up information about Hartleys for a couple of years now, though I haven't been inspired to purchase Richard's book on the history of Hartley. In my limited experience with the 220MSG it does not need a woofer, though I guess it's not impossible that a woofer from the Hartley Zodiac series might have been added for extra bottom end. The woofers in the white cabinets do resemble the Zodiac woofers, Zodiac being one of the more affordable lines produced by Hartley that do not have the Henry Luth designed white cone woofers. The woofers in the brown cabinets may be the same woofers but coated with something shiny at some point. On the other hand I've also wondered if they're not woofers but passive radiators. If I were to pursue speakers with the 220MSG drivers I would most likely just buy the drivers (still not a cheap option) and get some help building a cabinet for them. For the record I have considered this. The Philips tweeter in these is, as best I know, is used as a supertweeter and, according to Richard, are mostly there to help with the high frequency harmonics found in music. There are better options available including a Hartley designed dome tweeter developed later and used in later designs. The biggest drawback to the 220MSG drivers is the frequecies roughly between 6,000 and 6,500 hertz have a severe dispersion issue and drop off dramatically when one moves away from the axis of the speaker. I think in a modern design such a driver would have a phase plug to mitigate this issue.
 
Guido57 said:
I've been digging up information about Hartleys for a couple of years now, though I haven't been inspired to purchase Richard's book on the history of Hartley. In my limited experience with the 220MSG it does not need a woofer, though I guess it's not impossible that a woofer from the Hartley Zodiac series might have been added for extra bottom end. The woofers in the white cabinets do resemble the Zodiac woofers, Zodiac being one of the more affordable lines produced by Hartley that do not have the Henry Luth designed white cone woofers. The woofers in the brown cabinets may be the same woofers but coated with something shiny at some point. On the other hand I've also wondered if they're not woofers but passive radiators. If I were to pursue speakers with the 220MSG drivers I would most likely just buy the drivers (still not a cheap option) and get some help building a cabinet for them. For the record I have considered this. The Philips tweeter in these is, as best I know, is used as a supertweeter and, according to Richard, are mostly there to help with the high frequency harmonics found in music. There are better options available including a Hartley designed dome tweeter developed later and used in later designs. The biggest drawback to the 220MSG drivers is the frequecies roughly between 6,000 and 6,500 hertz have a severe dispersion issue and drop off dramatically when one moves away from the axis of the speaker. I think in a modern design such a driver would have a phase plug to mitigate this issue.
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Thank you! I too have thought about just getting the 220 msg drivers along with a set of the Hartley RDT-4 Tweeters (Richard has these for $100 a piece) and building a cabinet that works well with the 220 - either a bass reflex or folded and then perhaps isolating the tweeter and using a simple 1 cap crossover for the tweeter. That way it would be super easy to try a couple different values 1uf, 2uf, etc as you look for balance with the msg. But then I saw these come up locally and thought, hmmm? I can find info on the big Hartley's and I can find the small holton JR's, etc, but literally nothing on these. Like one brief mention in some obscure thread about peoples favorite speakers or something.

Have you though much about the design for the cabinet you think might work best for these? I can't seem to get off them and think it's probably just a matter of time before I have to satisfy that curiosity. I am concerned a bit about the off axis drop-off but I guess you know that going in so...
 
Hartley even put out some slightly customized versions of their Zodiac line going by some of the emails I've exchanged with Richard, so it's not hard to comprehend them putting out customized versions of the Holton. I upgraded my Zodiac 74s with the RDT-4 tweeters, they are a tremendous improvement but probably more so in the Zodiacs since they carry everything above about 2,000Hz. If I were to build a cabinet for the MSG220s I would either go with a large enough cabinet to make them an infinite baffle design or a "boffle". Essentially one large cabinet with a removable back so I could configure it either way. A bass reflex may work, but I doubt the MSG220 needs a folded design.
Just out of curiosity, @BMWk75, which exact model do you have?
 
BMWk75 said:
Hartley Holton Tower
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I had to ask.
If I could bother you a bit more, do they match the pictures the OP posted and, if so, are the black units drivers or passives? As the OP mentioned, information on these is hard to come by.
 
Yes, same as left, yes I believe so. I purchased these from a fellow that had Richard advise him. I have receipt from Richard where parts were purchased.
 
BMWk75 said:
Yes, same as left, yes I believe so. I purchased these from a fellow that had Richard advise him. I have receipt from Richard where parts were purchased.
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Nice, pictures? Also, what drivers were used for the woofers if I may ask?
 
If my guess on the woofers is correct that they are from the Zodiac line the numbers on the back of the driver would indicate Becker but they are Hartley. Hartley purchased the frames from Becker, but the rest of the woofer was designed and built at Hartley, per Richard. For the record, I find the woofers on my Zodiac 74s to be awesome.
 
I don't know why Hartley doesn't put out more cabinet construction plans. My cabs are probably about the same volume as these though ported without a bass driver. I honesty don't think the 220 MSG needs a bass driver but then I use mine when I really want to hear the acoustics of real instrument's and vocals. I have only just got a decent tube amp behind mine and I could never sell them. I wonder how the new version of the 220 MSG compares. Again, Hartley's marketing seems minimal..

Another thing, my crossover is marked Holten III. though My speakers run the 220 and a seas tweeter and coles super tweeter. ?
 
RuffzGuts said:
I wonder how the new version of the 220 MSG compares. Again, Hartley's marketing seems minimal..

Another thing, my crossover is marked Holten III. though My speakers run the 220 and a seas tweeter and coles super tweeter. ?
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"New" version? Do you mean Alnico vs Ferite?
Any idea of the age of your Hartleys? Did you find yours there in Australia? They're a long way from home.
 
Just checked the website for the audiolab, which had been Richards business. Seems it's under new management, may make it harder to contact Richard. Last year he had indicated he was probably going to put the business up for sale.
 
Guido57 said:
"New" version? Do you mean Alnico vs Ferite?
Any idea of the age of your Hartleys? Did you find yours there in Australia? They're a long way from home.
Click to expand...

Um possibly, I just know there were new drivers listed on the bay with postage to Australia a while back with a new magnet design. They seem to have disappeared now. Yes I found mine in Australia, in custom cabs of an Australian speaker manufacturer of the 70's, I would say they would have been specifically imported by this company, possibly a custom order as i have not seen any others. I did see some 18 inch bass drivers go up for sale here a few years back and they sold for big money, could only dream of having them, so there may be a small stash hidden down under. Well i hope the company continues to exist. I would happily become a supplier :cool: I could sell these drivers all day long!
 
To the best of my knowledge production ceased in the area of ten years ago or so. The first drivers had ALNICO magnets switching to ferite somewhere along the way. In emails Richard told me he preferred the ferite version. Actually got my hands on a pair of MSG-220 drivers for under a grand, US dollars, at one point but one was damaged in shipping. Experimented with the good one a bit before sending them back. Any of the white Hartley drivers are rare as hen's teeth, particularly the 18 and 24 inch woofers. Not sure if at this point the220s are superior to the best of modern full ranges drivers, unfortunately I doubt I'll have the budget to find out.
 
Yes well i don't want to speculate to much as Hartley seems to be a small business, and who knows what has gone on in these times but there were a string of new drivers listed on the bay possibly by Richard with postage available to Australia. The market for vintage full range drivers here is certainly increasing with people really hunting for some of the more sought after models. I wish I had known more ten years ago and collected more but you know I have been pretty lucky in what I have found for next to nothing. I think you would be hard pressed finding anything as good as the Hartley 220msg in the price range if at all.
I think it is only the rarity, given that not many people have them that they are not more sought after. And some that have come across them haven't really placed them in proper cabs for critical listening. I still have much experimenting to do with mine, I need a 4 ohm tap with some juice, and I would like to configure them so the crossover can be taken out of play.
I currently own 2 pairs of the blue alnico version as i was just really lucky to plug a random search into the bay a few years back and see a really clean pair that had just been listed with a buy it now price of 1k. I couldn't hit the button quick enough, and after i bought them i sensed some hesitancy of the seller, which was rightly so as they were worth 2k here at the time easy in my opinion. I was pretty anxious until I knew they were in the post and very happy when they arrived.
So, i still have my old pair which i intend to build another set with, but I would like to do something different which brings me back to the limited information available on cab and crossover design.
There is another pair listed now in the States again in a completely different volume cab with a Phillip's tweeter.???
I think if they marketed them for DIY like Kef and Wharfedale did in the 60's with construction specs they would sell like hot cakes..
But then i forget, as a bloke that come to buy some speakers of me recently said, its all about the bass now days..
I recently listed to a store bought system the guy had spent 20k on. I thought it sounded like mud.
 
I check the bay frequently, but have never seen any Hartley drivers listed as 'new'. There was a designer/builder of speakers in Japan at one point who used MSG-220s in a two way configuration. I wonder if what you're seeing may have been leftover stock. Hartley never built a large number of their signature drivers on the Henry Luth design and all were aimed at the high end of the market or DIY. Richard Schmetterer designed a series of more affordable speakers with the Hartley brand starting in the early 70's with their Zodiac line but without the signature white polymer drivers.
From some of what I've read Henry Luth preferred using just one full range driver per box in what has been called a boffle design, no crossover needed. When I can get the files off my dead laptop I'll send you what I have on boffle design, though admittedly not much it could be a start. Another option is running the MSG-220 full range with a super tweeter crossed very high. The MSG-220 can sometimes be found for the $600 range each though not sure what it might cost to get them to Melbourne.
 
Yeah I'll eat my words mate, I have just logged onto the American bay and found the listings, they are used drivers with the modern version of the magnet.
The speakers I saw have already sold by the looks as I cant find them, they looked nice and clean.
Yes I am familiar with the Japanese blokes build, in the white cabs? I some times wonder, whether people like the look of a cabinet so much they think it must be right. But then I am no expert. I just say that because i have some Corals that I have seen built into monster pieces of art in Japan, that i have placed in the tiniest little cabs, and they are Giant killers i reckon but then I use them in my little workshop. The room that we place our speakers in gets little mention considering how important it is.. there are so many variables.
Looking at most of the speakers I have seen that are not exclusively filled with Hartley drivers, we should also consider that they were built at a time with what was available and considered modern. If tweeters are going to be used in the mix I wouldn't hesitate to use the best quality new parts to go with the 220 msg.. well it seems to make sense to me anyway. Maybe my spare set will make it into a bi amp set up. though I am pretty happy with what I have got.
 
I've only seen one picture of those Japanese speakers, don't recall the finish. Some of Hartley's premium designs could have three large drivers. They actually made a 7" tweeter. For a long while they used a Phillips dome as a super tweeter in the upper models and as the tweeter in their economical series. After the Zodiac affordable series they developed their own dome tweeter and dropped the Phillips across their entire lineup. The new tweeters are excellent, have a pair in my Hartley Zodiac 74's for about a year now. I considered using a Seas dome but did not want to calculate my own crossover.
 
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