Has anyone repaired the ribbon tweeters on a Pioneer HPM-1100?
- Thread starter gary7
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Only with my right ear.
I don't believe that they are ribbon tweeters, which are a specific thing. The HPM stands for high polymer mylar - they are metalized (I think) so that current is conducted, and the bulge in the mylar expands and contracts with the signal producing sound. Ribbon tweeters use magnets and a metal ribbon with at least some corrugations to allow for movement when signal flows through the ribbon.
bigx5murf
Super Member
They're likely not broken, if you open them up, it's some sort of foil stretched over foam, and they're not physically connected to either contacts. On the crossover, they're connected directly to what look like tiny transformers.
Best way I've found to test them, is to play a 18kHz tone through them with a dog in the room. If the dog starts to freak out, they're working. I personally can't hear them, but if I put my ear up to them trying, I'll get headaches.
Best way I've found to test them, is to play a 18kHz tone through them with a dog in the room. If the dog starts to freak out, they're working. I personally can't hear them, but if I put my ear up to them trying, I'll get headaches.
But if they are working l should get a reading on a ohm meter as with conventional drivers when I touch the + and - on the tweeters?
waggs098
Super Member
This is a quote from a different thread.
https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/pioneer-hpm-1100-super-tweeters.552497/
I did a search & never saw this thread. Hope I haven't destroyed them trying to "fix" them like a regular speaker.
slimecity
Super Member
Guess they did it cause they could.
I suppose you could try a larger capacitor to increase frequency range if you really want to hear them.
Not so much to hear them as to know if they are working. I suppose they were intended to give the top end that extra sizzle, more sensed than actually heard.
This is from oaktreevintage.com
A few notes about the Pioneer HPM-1100 HP-019 'Super Tweeters' (or any of the Pioneer HPM series 'Super Tweeters'
"These are 'piezo' / Crystal element drivers. They do NOT have an impedance as most speaker drivers do (ie; 4 Ohm / 8 Ohm / 16 Ohm etc.) so measuring them with an Ohm Meter / multi-meter will not give you any meaningful information about their condition.
Secondly, they are generally designed to play 12kHz and above. There's not much going on in those frequencies at anyone time in most musical recordings at any one instance, so if you are trying to test them with recorded material, it will be difficult. Another factor that adds to the difficulty of testing them (at least while installed in their speaker cabinet, is their 'close proximity' to the other tweeters / drivers. To really test them properly you should use 'white noise' or 'pink noise' as opposed to 'recorded material', and they should be at least removed from the cabinet and pulled away (as far as their wires will allow), or removed and disconnected completely for 'bench testing'. Which brings up a point. If they are so hard to hear (even in the best of circumstances) what are their purpose. They were designed to be the 'one up' / 'ace in the hole' improvement over the hugely popular JBL L100 at the time, and that was about the only way the designer could make an improvement. Even the loudest HPM 'Super Tweeters' have very low output, relatively speaking, so most listeners will / would not miss them if they were blown or missing. They're also one of the few drivers that we see varying amounts of output from. Most drivers either work or they don't, but we see variances of from 3 to 6dB out of Pioneer HPM Super Tweeters commonly (and that's the ones that are working properly). Some will have VERY faint output on the test bench. Some will have none.
Thirdly, they are VERY susceptible to 'torque' / 'torsional' damage during removal / re-installation. Their mounting screws must be torque'd / tightened evenly and not too snug. That torque can be enough to damage the crystal membrane (and we're not aware of a 'fix').
One of our consignors recently purchased a pair from an ebay seller that "are in working condition, not blown". He called us and said he couldn't hear anything from the replacements once installed. I explained to him all of the above, and said to bring those and the originals in for bench testing, as they may work, as he wasn't testing them correctly. Also, due to output differences we could 'match' a pair to install using our RTA / dB meter. Unfortunately when he brought them in, they were all essentially DOA. I could 'torque' the housing on three of them and get output that would jump from zero, to VERY faint, to normal, but if left simply sitting on the bench none had any output. I could also 'tap' lightly with my finger on two of them and get output intermittently. He said he would contact the ebay seller for 'relief' (good luck with that. I always tell folks that if you're going to purchase speaker parts from on-line auction sellers to purchase 2 to 4 times as many as you need as the likely-hood of the parts actually working correctly will be slim).
The above should illustrate how 'risky' / difficult it will be to replace your HPM super tweeters (assuming you need to). Most listeners will be just fine without them working."
I just hope I did not mess mine up when I had them apart. Probably would not know if I did or not.
I hope this keeps others from trying to "fix" these tweeters and doing damage to them instead.
A few notes about the Pioneer HPM-1100 HP-019 'Super Tweeters' (or any of the Pioneer HPM series 'Super Tweeters'
"These are 'piezo' / Crystal element drivers. They do NOT have an impedance as most speaker drivers do (ie; 4 Ohm / 8 Ohm / 16 Ohm etc.) so measuring them with an Ohm Meter / multi-meter will not give you any meaningful information about their condition.
Secondly, they are generally designed to play 12kHz and above. There's not much going on in those frequencies at anyone time in most musical recordings at any one instance, so if you are trying to test them with recorded material, it will be difficult. Another factor that adds to the difficulty of testing them (at least while installed in their speaker cabinet, is their 'close proximity' to the other tweeters / drivers. To really test them properly you should use 'white noise' or 'pink noise' as opposed to 'recorded material', and they should be at least removed from the cabinet and pulled away (as far as their wires will allow), or removed and disconnected completely for 'bench testing'. Which brings up a point. If they are so hard to hear (even in the best of circumstances) what are their purpose. They were designed to be the 'one up' / 'ace in the hole' improvement over the hugely popular JBL L100 at the time, and that was about the only way the designer could make an improvement. Even the loudest HPM 'Super Tweeters' have very low output, relatively speaking, so most listeners will / would not miss them if they were blown or missing. They're also one of the few drivers that we see varying amounts of output from. Most drivers either work or they don't, but we see variances of from 3 to 6dB out of Pioneer HPM Super Tweeters commonly (and that's the ones that are working properly). Some will have VERY faint output on the test bench. Some will have none.
Thirdly, they are VERY susceptible to 'torque' / 'torsional' damage during removal / re-installation. Their mounting screws must be torque'd / tightened evenly and not too snug. That torque can be enough to damage the crystal membrane (and we're not aware of a 'fix').
One of our consignors recently purchased a pair from an ebay seller that "are in working condition, not blown". He called us and said he couldn't hear anything from the replacements once installed. I explained to him all of the above, and said to bring those and the originals in for bench testing, as they may work, as he wasn't testing them correctly. Also, due to output differences we could 'match' a pair to install using our RTA / dB meter. Unfortunately when he brought them in, they were all essentially DOA. I could 'torque' the housing on three of them and get output that would jump from zero, to VERY faint, to normal, but if left simply sitting on the bench none had any output. I could also 'tap' lightly with my finger on two of them and get output intermittently. He said he would contact the ebay seller for 'relief' (good luck with that. I always tell folks that if you're going to purchase speaker parts from on-line auction sellers to purchase 2 to 4 times as many as you need as the likely-hood of the parts actually working correctly will be slim).
The above should illustrate how 'risky' / difficult it will be to replace your HPM super tweeters (assuming you need to). Most listeners will be just fine without them working."
I just hope I did not mess mine up when I had them apart. Probably would not know if I did or not.
I hope this keeps others from trying to "fix" these tweeters and doing damage to them instead.
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Usefulness of those super tweeters despends entirely on your hearing. If you cannot hear anything above 12kHz, they might was well not be there. For me, though, they are a revelation and the reason I've owned HPM speakers for nearly 40 years. Quick test of your hearing at this level is to switch on a old CRT color television -- if you can hear the horizontal driver howling at 17.5kHz, you will hear the HPM super tweeters. If not, they are just decoration. I can tell if one is on anywhere in a normal house. Note that this is NOT true of any digital TV. No CRT to broadcast the sound as vibration.
When I was young, like my father I could hear 22kHz. "Ultrasonic" alarms and dog whistles are noisy..... Not sure I have much of that left by now though, at 64 I know I can't hear as well as I used to.
I mentioned this to a friend the other day at our homebrew club, and he said he found a pair of Klipschorn speaks at a yard sale and was blown away by the treble quality. Same deal, I think -- he mentioned without prompting that he can hear CRT televisions howling.
When I was young, like my father I could hear 22kHz. "Ultrasonic" alarms and dog whistles are noisy..... Not sure I have much of that left by now though, at 64 I know I can't hear as well as I used to.
I mentioned this to a friend the other day at our homebrew club, and he said he found a pair of Klipschorn speaks at a yard sale and was blown away by the treble quality. Same deal, I think -- he mentioned without prompting that he can hear CRT televisions howling.