Having a go at KHorns !

[SimonSilan]

Good to be here. Finally. Long time user of the massive combined knowledge on the site.
Time to get a bit more serious as I have a few days free (don’t we all!!
Working on my last two sets of speakers. Yup I truly believe I’ve reached that point. Of wanting to just sit n listen and forget about the ‘upgraditis’ I’ve suffered (andmost definitely enjoyed) for decades
Have two projects
Both cabinets are built and awaiting drivers and either passive or active crossovers (most likely)
I was fortunate to obtain a set of Augspurgers 2x15” large Monitors
They are now fitted with JBL 2220a and BMS 4590 through EmilarEH500s. Just figuring out how to use a Driverack on those as we speak
My question, good sirs, is about suitable (non original) drivers for a set of Canadian Made Vitavox KHorns (late 50s I believe)
As with the Augspurgers I purchased these as empty cabs. Apparently the original Vitavox drivers got the guy a down payment on his new condo !
So I have a cpl if ideas and options and would be seriously grateful if anyone would care to chime in with yays or nays
Could go active with these too
Although a high quality passive would probably be preferred as I’d like to power them with a 70w/ch JJ828
Here is what I have ‘available’ to go into n onto the KHorns
Woofers.
EVM15L
18 Sound 15LW1401
Celestion G15-150
Beyma 15KX (coaxial but good bottom)
TAD 1603 (being held by a friend for me should they work)
JBL 2235
From my meagre research it seems the TADs aren’t that far off the orig Klipsch E33 in VAS, Fs,Qts,Xmax
But of course there’s the impedance difference
Now this may be sacrilegious to some but I have a desire to go and do something a little different with the mid/hi side of things
Trying to use what I have on the shelf here so bare with me
Could this work??
Altec 802-8G on 511B for mids (the ever important vocal range)
ESS Heils from the AMT6 Pro (4 per side) for the highs
I’m sure many may question the need to add in the Heils. I’m all ears.
But I must say I’ve actually considered using them rather than the Altec! Listening to Annie Lennox sing Everytime we say Goodbye through those tweeters was a high water mark for me
So !!!
2 Way?
3 Way?
And What Way??
I’m concerned that the woofer section of the KHorn won’t want to go up to 800hz or so if I go 2 Way with Heils!
But the woofer choice is obviously a big part of the equation
Wow what an essay
Forgive me
Cheers from sunny Ontario!!!!!
Simon

 

[Drugolf]

Hmmm.....
Not too sure about the 511B. I have some xtra Speakerlab H350 horns from KHorns if desired.

 

[SimonSilan]

Hmmm.....
Not too sure about the 511B. I have some xtra Speakerlab H350 horns from KHorns if desired.

Very kind of you!
TBH I’ve not considered or was even aware they existed !
Will do a wee bit of research
I suppose I should always consider NOT reinventing the wheel and sticking with what has garnered the K such a reputation. E33 K77(etc)
But as an inveterate ‘tinkerer’ I’m always just ‘cobbling it together’
Part of the fun. Although if truth be told can’t really think of many times I’ve come up with anything BETTER!!
Hahahahaha
Cheers

 

[twiiii]

Altec 1 " drivers don't due well below 700 HZ. The diaphragm physical modulation limits will be exceeded easily causing physical surround failures. And is why the driver is only rated at 10 to 14 watts rms. Raising to 700 with a modulation back cap will tripple the power handling above 700 HZ. So look else where for a driver. Emilars are rated twice the power down to 500 HZ with the bigger driver. 511 horns sound better when crossed at 800 HZ any way. If it were me I prefer the 311 x 90 horns with the 291-16B driver with the symbiotic diaphragm. Those you can take to 400 HZ if you use a 24/db/oct crossover. But you will need the tweeter for sure. The 311 series horns aren't physical ringers like the 511 and 811.

 

[Coytee]

2 Way?
3 Way?

I don't know anything about the various parts you have but will say this.

PWK always wanted his Khorn to be a 2-way speaker. Parts & technology of the time didn't allow him to do that so he made it a 3-way.

Later in life, as drivers/stuff improved, he came out with the replacement to the Khorn..... the Jubilee which was designed to become the "Khorn II" and was a 2-way speaker.

Having owned the 3-way Khorn and now, the 2-way Jubilee.... my comment is, ANYTHING you can do to make your speaker a 2-way system (with appropriate designs) will make it sound better than the 3-way version.

Again, presuming appropriate designs & parts.

I had no clue why the Jubilee's sounded so much more coherent than the Khorns they replaced..... I finally decided it was because of the time aligned signal they were being fed..... someone much smarter than me said nope, it was the loss of the crossover and I can go verify that by doing such & such (which I ended up doing)

It turns out that losing a crossover point (with all other parameters properly designed) is a SIGNIFICANT improvement over the 3-way version.

So, I'd target 2-way if at all possible.

 

[SimonSilan]

Excellent advice all around fellas !
Truth be known, yes I would prefer a 2 Way setup
Simplicity first
I purchased a pair of BMS4590 mid/hi comp drivers recently. They are in the Augspurgers with the Emilar horns.
I’ve been in touch with the man himself (George) and he v graciously plotted a graph of these particular monitors(designed for a friend of mine here in Toronto) using the JBL 2220a I had kickin around from old old 4560 cabs. As I will be using a pair of 4645b(or is it 4546b?!, 18” sub with 2242hpl anyway) from 60 on down they’ll be good. That was a roundabout way (I do waffle!) of saying I can get another pair of BMS4590s which theoretically are V Good down to 450-500. That would allow me to go 2 Way right fellas? The 4590s have the Tannoy horns (VQ64?)
I’ll just sell the Altec combo and various drivers that won’t be used. I MUST clean up and get back to basics.
One HUGE ask tho gents.....
What are we thinking as far as the 15” driver for the bass section of the K ?
Don’t want to add a sub to these
Strictly 2 Way
If the TAD 1603 will work I’m ready to pull the trigger
I’ll sell the EVM, 18 Sound, RCF Celestion etc
Want my storage back !!!!!!!
I will keep those Beyma 15KX however for an OB experiment
Can’t go full Cold Turkey boys !!
Cheers all
S

 

[toddalin]

2242s are not "subs" and using them below 60 Hz is an excercize in futility. You would be better off with 2241s which will play lower even in a smaller cabinet. And even these aren't very good below ~40 Hz.

 

[SimonSilan]

In that case I’ll bring out the Fostex SW800 or Clarion 32”
That should take care of it
Funny I just got off the phone 5 mins ago with a friend who’s recapping an amp of mine. He thought I should just “wait n see” how it sounds with the 4 2220s
I tend to agree
Plus with the DR260 I believe I can throw a few Db at the bottom end to fill things out
Thanks for the knowledge tho

 

[SimonSilan]

BTW here’s a tearjerker for all low freqs ‘hedz’
Had to move an EV30W out of the house for ‘staging’ I believe they call it
Put it in the neighbors garage
Ended up being there for a few months
And the squirrels were incredibly grateful!!! Hehe

 

[SimonSilan]

I’m a bit confused Toddalin
JBL specs state that enclosure (4645b) going flat to 20hz with some EQ
I realize that’s open to debate
I suppose most speakers good get flat to 20 with “enough EQ”
But the literature does seem to suggest it’s a useful bit of kit from 30hz-80hz
Thoughts?

 

[Aptone]

And the squirrels were incredibly grateful!!! Hehe

Squirrels are evil

 

[toddalin]

I’m a bit confused Toddalin
JBL specs state that enclosure (4645b) going flat to 20hz with some EQ
I realize that’s open to debate
I suppose most speakers good get flat to 20 with “enough EQ”
But the literature does seem to suggest it’s a useful bit of kit from 30hz-80hz
Thoughts?

My thoughts are to run WinISD for the 2241,2242, and 2245 and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Coytee]

I'm not technical enough to answer your above questions.... so I'll toss out some random thoughts.

1. I know nothing about the TAD driver (woofer??) I've heard many, many stories over the years of people replacing the stock K33 (which is pretty inexpensive) with something more fancy.... only to not like how it turns out and go back to the K33. I don't think the K33 is the problem. Now, if you already HAVE the TAD and can use it without buying a K33.... what the heck.

2. Below a certain frequency, as I understand, the horn unit (woofer) ceases to act like a horn and acts more like a direct radiator.... none the less.... to get much lower in output, you're going to need a larger horn. Regardless of what driver you put in there, the length of the horn will pretty much dictate how low it can go. (the old physics is physics thing??)

3. The issue with the stock Khorn is less how low it will go but rather, how HIGH it will go to allow an appropriate crossover point to go 2-way. The Khorn doesn't evidently go high enough but, I think I've read if someone went active, they could make it work. (perhaps steeper slopes to protect the tweeter??)

4. Finding a HF unit that will both, go low enough to cross over AND also go high enough and do so without blowing up might be a challange but, evidently, the drivers of today are much better than of years past. They use a 2" throat in the Jubilee... as such, some (myself included) have opted to swap out the stock driver for a TAD 4002 and it's a noticeable improvement in sound.

5. Another HF solution could be to go with a coaxial driver. That might give you the better sound spread of a 3-way but, a more cohesive sound of a 2-way.

Or, just sell it all....toss some extra cash into the pile and buy a pair of Jubilee's which even in stock form, totally stomped the upgraded Khorns I use to have. After all..... when PWK created the Khorn, he had exactly how many years of designing horn speakers? I think it was probably less than one. By the time he got around to designing the Jubilee (with the help of Mr. Delgado), he had 50 years of experience. He probably learned a thing or two in the meantime.

If you want a tinker project, just mute my comments.... if you want stupendous sound, there's more wisdom in the above comment about just getting a Jubilee than it might seem. Side by side, there is no comparison.

 

[SimonSilan]

Coytee!!
Thankyou for a well explained and considerate answer!!
I think I’ll listen to my brain on this one and not my heart . Heart wants to stick with the KHorn and maybe ‘find something no-one has discovered yet’ hahaha
But seriously, life is short and time spent in the armchair listening rather than tweaking is more and more appealing with every sunrise
The KHorn has always been a bit of a ‘end of rainbow’ kinda speaker to me, which is of course ridiculous as I’ve never even heard one!
The honest truth is I’ve two GIANT speaker pairs on the go here,Augspurgers and KHorns. I’m renovating a big old bank barn to live in and just want to FILL it with luscious sounds. But let’s be real, one pair will get used and the other will sit on the sidelines and take up real estate.
Plus I already have a kinda ridiculous collection of ‘speaks, including the not too small Acoustat 2+2s !
I’m so glad people have chimed in an given me a dose of reality
This must have been the reason I signed up yesterday hahaha
Going to make the decision tomorrow when I don’t have the best part of a bottle of red in me
But the advice,Coytee, has been taken to heart.
Gracias

 

[SimonSilan]

Speaking of horns, I thought you might get a kick out of these ‘wee fellas’ hanging in my workshop
Meant for mid bass duty apparently
Fairly disappointing sound to be honest but they were built for a specific purpose no doubt. Saw them at an auction n well you know how it goes ....
Hehehe

 

[jcidave]

Simon Silan: If you are going to use the Heil array from the AMT6 you might want to check the crossover point. I have been trying to find it and haven't been successful yet. I am not sure that Heil will work well down to 800hz. Those are the dual plate Heils and not the larger or Great Heil. It was this latter one that crossed over at 800 hz. There are some guys over on the Klipsch Audio Community site that have experimented with double stacked Great Heils with added wooden wings creating a horn like structure. These folks are crossing over this assembly at 500 hz. You may want to check that out. Its a good read. The Great Heils are really not that expensive.
Just something to consider.

 

[SimonSilan]

Interesting! Thanks JciDave
I did save the crossovers too
Perhaps some reverse engineering would be possible by a person with skills greater than I !!!?
I do recall having done a search for that info years ago and finding the XOver to be 800. Could be wrong tho
That “stacking” into a horn idea is wild
Crazy Klipsch guys
Last night I was all ready to just throw in the towel with the Ks and focus on perfecting the ‘Auggies’
This morning, with the red worn off, I’m not so sure ! Haha
The problem may be as was suggested last night getting the woofer to xover higher rather than the tweet/mid lower
While keeping in two way (my preference)
Ok I’m off for breakfast and more procrastinating.
Plus have a big old PA system (4560/421-8LF) bottoms
(2360a/EV DH1a) tops
That needs to be ‘sorted’ for a guy who’s coming down from 500km away to buy it. More Space!!!! Yayyyyy

 

[Coytee]

Top picture is a fella who's got some Klipsch MWM stacks along with the rare KP-600's

Next picture is of another fella who has these in his basement.

Bottom is something I threw together outdoors (I don't take the Jubilee's outside)

 

[SimonSilan]

Good God !!!!!!