Hearing loss, tinnitus and speaker preference
- Thread starter cubdog
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Altec Best
Well-Known Member
Wow I'm astonished at the amount of people experiencing Tinnitus ! And the vast majority seem to be on the west coast !That couldn't be part of the West Coast Sound y'all talk about out there could it ? 
On a More serious note.I wish you all find a cure for this and get some kind of relief ! :yes:
Now back to what Cubdog was asking in his original post I agree. I Love Horns as well !! :thmbsp:
I don't understand the "Too Bright" stigma they get. Horns can be attenuated can't they ? Like any other speaker it is all in the setup.They can pretty much be tweaked/EQ'd till the cows come home to get the right sound for everyones personal preferences. :thmbsp:
On a More serious note.I wish you all find a cure for this and get some kind of relief ! :yes:
Now back to what Cubdog was asking in his original post I agree. I Love Horns as well !! :thmbsp:
I don't understand the "Too Bright" stigma they get. Horns can be attenuated can't they ? Like any other speaker it is all in the setup.They can pretty much be tweaked/EQ'd till the cows come home to get the right sound for everyones personal preferences. :thmbsp:
I have some hearing loss and tinnitus from common sources.
1. 4 years in the Navy in a carrier deployed fighter squadron, avionics tech on F-4's. Hearing test upon discharge showed I lost a good spread in the mid-high region.
2. Lots of rock concerts, (over 100) often somewhat intoxicated.
3. ALways built loud stereos in my cars, escalating to a (real RMS) 1800 watt system in my Corvette with horns I built into the dash, and competed in sound competetions with. It hit 143 db in SPL scoring. It was so loud and clear just 5-10 minutes in the car you'd get out feeling like you went 3 rounds with Mike Tyson, I tore it all out after qualifiying for the IASCA world finals and winning my division in So Cal. It was like "be careful what you want you might get it", I always wanted a really loud car stereo.
However I am told the best way to damage your hearing is getting drunk and going to loud rock concerts.
Your ears have natural protection when the muscles contract when loud noises occur.
The alcohol relaxes them and they are unable to do that.
If anyone thinks wax is a problem, pour in a little hydrogen peroxide, a little foaming is typical, if it goes bonkers you may have a lot of wax. Over the counter ear drops work well, they usually come with a bulb you use warm water with.
Tinnitus does not affect my listening that much and we lose a lot of our high freq. hearing anyway with age.
The worst thing about tinnitus for me is being in a silent room, because there is no silence. The ringing is loud as bombs.
I think some here are confusing what a "brighter" speaker would sound like VS.what HLCD or horns would sound like with tinnitus. Horns are designed to efficiently couple the diaphram of the driver to the pressure of ambient air, and this is why they are acclaimed for "detail". Seems to me if your ear is sensitive to spikes in sound, this device would make a more immediate pathway of the sound waves to your eardrum.
Layman's terms, surely we have a professional around here who can better explain it.
I have had horns in several competition level car systems, they are known to be hard to tune but the real problem seems to be using passive crossovers with HLCD's and conventional cone drivers on the same amp channel. I always shunned this and used multi channel amps (like the a/d/s p840, 8 channels with xovers on all including bandpass) to give horns their own amp channel. Otherwise they are a real bear with a conventional woofer.
1. 4 years in the Navy in a carrier deployed fighter squadron, avionics tech on F-4's. Hearing test upon discharge showed I lost a good spread in the mid-high region.
2. Lots of rock concerts, (over 100) often somewhat intoxicated.
3. ALways built loud stereos in my cars, escalating to a (real RMS) 1800 watt system in my Corvette with horns I built into the dash, and competed in sound competetions with. It hit 143 db in SPL scoring. It was so loud and clear just 5-10 minutes in the car you'd get out feeling like you went 3 rounds with Mike Tyson, I tore it all out after qualifiying for the IASCA world finals and winning my division in So Cal. It was like "be careful what you want you might get it", I always wanted a really loud car stereo.
However I am told the best way to damage your hearing is getting drunk and going to loud rock concerts.
Your ears have natural protection when the muscles contract when loud noises occur.
The alcohol relaxes them and they are unable to do that.
If anyone thinks wax is a problem, pour in a little hydrogen peroxide, a little foaming is typical, if it goes bonkers you may have a lot of wax. Over the counter ear drops work well, they usually come with a bulb you use warm water with.
Tinnitus does not affect my listening that much and we lose a lot of our high freq. hearing anyway with age.
The worst thing about tinnitus for me is being in a silent room, because there is no silence. The ringing is loud as bombs.
I think some here are confusing what a "brighter" speaker would sound like VS.what HLCD or horns would sound like with tinnitus. Horns are designed to efficiently couple the diaphram of the driver to the pressure of ambient air, and this is why they are acclaimed for "detail". Seems to me if your ear is sensitive to spikes in sound, this device would make a more immediate pathway of the sound waves to your eardrum.
Layman's terms, surely we have a professional around here who can better explain it.
I have had horns in several competition level car systems, they are known to be hard to tune but the real problem seems to be using passive crossovers with HLCD's and conventional cone drivers on the same amp channel. I always shunned this and used multi channel amps (like the a/d/s p840, 8 channels with xovers on all including bandpass) to give horns their own amp channel. Otherwise they are a real bear with a conventional woofer.
hibuckhobby
Well-Known Member
Hey Cubdog...right there with ya. I have mild tinnitus, but have had wax buildup all my life. I have asked myself if that's why I like my Cornwalls as much as I do...although others who hear them "do" say they sound great. My experience is that upper midrange/lower treble emphasis will send me running from the room. My ears literally hurt. Getting old isn't for sissies.
Hibuck...
Hibuck...
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
I'm no expert, but I wouldn't think that someone's hearing loss should influence the speakers they buy, as far as being bright or whatnot. Much like bfishn's example, if someone wants their home system to sound like real music, they would choose neutral speakers no matter how wonky their hearing measures, frequency response-wise. If someone prefers a hyped up high end, they'll buy speakers that provide that (or EQ to taste) no matter what anomalies their ears present.
Am I missing something here?
Am I missing something here?
cubdog
banging through drywall
This makes as much sense to me as any other theory. I didn't buy my Klipsch speakers because of my poor hearing but only because I like them. Still, I wonder if our hearing plays any part in what we like in a speaker
cubdog.
furnitureguy
Active Member
Hearing loss has definitely played a part of what speakers I have bought in the past. While boosting the deficient frequencies certainly helps – it does not fully compensate.
When I first got my hearing aids I was simply astounded at the difference (truly a miracle!). I have since done a lot of A/B tests between my various speakers with and without the hearing aids. I have adjusted the EQ so it sounds good without hearing aids and performed the A/B and then again adjusted everything so it sounds good with my hearing aids (usually everything to a neutral position with the hearing aids).
By far the best sound is with the hearing aids. Both adjusting the EQ and hearing aids in theory do the same thing – boost certain frequencies. But this new generation of hearing aid definitely does something more.
If I were to judge speakers alone without the hearing aids, I would not choose the same speakers – hearing loss has played a major part in my speaker selection prior to my hearing aids.
What House de Kris and some others are missing is that most speakers that sound "bright" don't usually sound that way because of some smoothly rising frequency response, and losing your HF hearing doesn't usually come in the form of smoothly falling treble perception. Instead, in a speaker, it's resonant peaks and other types of distortion. If those problems are in the HF, but the rest of the output is very clean and neutral, then someone with poor HF hearing might hear a speaker that sounds like reality to them because it so happens they can't hear a thing in the worst sounding peaky regions of the speaker output, while it sounds terrible to someone with better hearing.
In other words, we're not talking about a half-deaf person liking a different frequency response (though they might), we're talking about a half-deaf person not being able to hear the difference in frequency response.
In other words, we're not talking about a half-deaf person liking a different frequency response (though they might), we're talking about a half-deaf person not being able to hear the difference in frequency response.
Altec Best
Well-Known Member
+1 Absolutely ! If we didn't like how they sound we wouldn't buy them in the first place or we would sell them rather quickly if we bought them blind and didn't like them. For Folk's who have hearing issues I'm wondering if any of you guys use any kind of measuring equipment to help tweak your sound preferences in your speakers.You can get a fairly nice test setup for a few hundred ($300-$400) depending on where you get it. Not to mention it's fun measuring your gear ! :yes:
This way not only are we using our hearing, but we will also have a visual reference for analyzing what we are hearing,and to help adjust to our preferences or needs IMO.
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When you get extremely poor high frequency hearing like me equilizers do virtually no good above 4Khz -8Khz when you are down 40dB+. I guess that's when you get more enjoyment DXing distant FM stations on your MR78 or recapping amplifiers instead of listening to the music.
Had your blood pressure checked recently?
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
I think this is a bit different than what this thread is about. You're describing a choice with an unintended consequence. IOW, the hearing impaired person buys a speaker with a harsh resonance not because of the resonance, but in spite of the resonance. Likewise, my speakers may have all sorts of gawd awful resonances at 35kHz, but I didn't buy them because of this, but rather in spite of them since I am fully unaware of such harshnesses.
I feel this actually supports my previous statements. You state right up front that you are attempting to compensate for your hearing deficiencies as opposed to trying to reproduce music in your home which will sound like a live performance of music with real instruments. And, this is fine. We all have different goals with our audio systems. I'll repeat what I wrote earlier, "if someone wants their home system to sound like real music, they would choose neutral speakers no matter how wonky their hearing measures." I hope the difference is clear.
Right. I'm not sure why you think this thread is not about that. It is my opinion that a lot of people like less-than-perfect horn speakers in spite of some unpleasant high frequency problems that they can barely hear or can't hear at all, NOT because they actually prefer a non-flat frequency response, extra treble, etc. There is room for both to be true, of course.
Rex Aeterna
Gigolo of Gigolos
you would have to be listening at crazy sound pressure levels and your room must be a reflective horror causing major reflections everywhere to damage your hearing. i mean how loud do you guys listen to music at? i mostly hear about headphone hearing damage than speakers.
i think also much people who into music,hi-fi world or musician have the problem of never taking breaks. your ears are like rest of your body. they need a break every now and then. sitting in a dead sounding room where you can actually hear ''silence'' is good place to relax and allow your ears to re-tune themselves. i always take a break in my room for good few hours cause my room is pretty dead sounding so i just relax and think/meditate. or just relaxing anywhere and listening to nature is good thing to do. not enough people take breaks. it actually helps you with your listening skills believe it or not.
i think also much people who into music,hi-fi world or musician have the problem of never taking breaks. your ears are like rest of your body. they need a break every now and then. sitting in a dead sounding room where you can actually hear ''silence'' is good place to relax and allow your ears to re-tune themselves. i always take a break in my room for good few hours cause my room is pretty dead sounding so i just relax and think/meditate. or just relaxing anywhere and listening to nature is good thing to do. not enough people take breaks. it actually helps you with your listening skills believe it or not.
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
I do see your point as well. As to why I think this thread is about what I wrote, it is based on the title of the thread and the words the OP used to start things off. Just as we all have different goals in audio, we also interpret things differently.
House de Kris
Loud-n-Deep
Hearing loss comes from many things, not just loud music. Some people spend years on ships, or around artillery. I've been shooting a handgun for less than a year, and I believe I've done more damage in this short time than all the decades of loud music I've been exposed to. It amazes me that my ears start to ring BEFORE I hear the blast - even with hearing protection on.
cnh2
Super Member
Interesting thread. Tinnitus, yeah I have some of that (both examples given above: occasional ringing and hearing ones heart beat through an ear).
Nonetheless, I haven't found my listening preferences changed at all. Even though my highs probably top out at 14Khz if I'm lucky, horns still irritate me. And most of the speakers I find pleasant, smooth, musical are often those that much younger ears agree with. So maybe the highs are going but in general this does not seem to be affecting my choice in speakers. In fact, in some ways I am "more" irritated by certain speakers than ever before. In particular, I find "digital" glare from mediocre CDPs and digital sources almost painful.
And I am, more than ever, drawn toward the "warm" side of the continuum. Love warmth. And am getting more and more into tube sound!
cnh2
Nonetheless, I haven't found my listening preferences changed at all. Even though my highs probably top out at 14Khz if I'm lucky, horns still irritate me. And most of the speakers I find pleasant, smooth, musical are often those that much younger ears agree with. So maybe the highs are going but in general this does not seem to be affecting my choice in speakers. In fact, in some ways I am "more" irritated by certain speakers than ever before. In particular, I find "digital" glare from mediocre CDPs and digital sources almost painful.
And I am, more than ever, drawn toward the "warm" side of the continuum. Love warmth. And am getting more and more into tube sound!
cnh2
Copa1934
My ears are bleeding
Don't recall this being mentioned, but found out through my dentist that gum or other infections in the mouth can cause problems, especially if there is swelling near the ears. I had an infection and when I received treatment my hearing improved, though of course it did not get rid of the ringing. Just pointing out that there are other contributing factors. I've had good luck with Lipoflavonoid. Not a cure, but I have been able to sleep better at night. I stopped taking it to see if it made any difference and it did, so I'm reasonably certain it's not psychological.
This "pulse" thing has my curiosity as I have a "crackling" sound in one ear, not constant, but seems to have a sort of rhythm to it, like maybe a heart beat. Of course my wife will often say I have no heart so I may be mistaken.
Totally agree. I am one of the very few audiophiles who actually likes neutral systems. This is because I am 23 and my hearing is still perfect, with no Tinnitus....and of course I have acquired the taste for neutral sound (I can listen to the old vinyl records that were mixed and mastered on neutral systems by guys who were my age and still had great hearing, play it back on a neutral system and think it sounds great.) I suspect this is becuase most audiophiles are guys in their 30s-60s who unquestionably have some sort of hearing loss, whether its a mid-range noise induced hearing loss, or natural age-related hearing loss of the higher frequencies.
Those who have incurred noise-induced hearing loss would prefer warm sounding systems, and guys who have incurred age-related hearing loss would prefer brighter soudning systems. All of this is assuming that they are striving to acheive neutral sound to their ears. Perhaps folks like you enjoy brighter sounding speakers because they sound more neutral to your ears, and likewise the noise-induced hearing loss crowd likes warmer sounding speakers becuase they sound neutral to their ears.
It's also a given that there are people who just don't like the sound of neutral, even if their hearing was perfect. Some guys just like warm sounding systems, and will always have a warm sounding system, regardless of how good or bad their hearing is. Likewise for bright sounding systems.
So in answer to your question, I think that hearing loss plays about 50% of a factor in what kind of system one has...the other 50% being personal preference and individual taste. If (when) I sustain hearing loss, I might change my speaker/EQ preferences to keep things sounding neutral to my ears as well. I'm very lucky that my hearing is as good as it is right now. I had ALOT of ear infections for a long time as a child, and as a teenager I was constantly abusing my ears with loud music and noises.
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