hatrack71
distracted by everything
Oh yes, the venerable "Velvet Elvis." Maybe I should get one.:scratch2:
Heil ESS speakers - what are your thoughts?
- Thread starter Inamelotone
- Start date
Oh yes, the venerable "Velvet Elvis." Maybe I should get one.:scratch2:
Inamelotone
Active Member
Hi guys
Thanks so much for your enthusiastic response. Well I got the speakers home and hooked 'em up and... I must say I was rather bowled over! After years of Klipsch Heresy addiction (just about as far removed from the Heil philosophy as must be possible?) the PS9As made for a fascinating listen. Like you said the treble was something truly special, with so much air and detail and totally non-fatiguing, really quite wonderful. I found them particularly well matched to vintage tube amps - happily they happen to be quite efficient - as the warmth from the amp complement the speakers best. BUT... after a few days I can't help thinking there are a bit too 'cool' in the midrange. Which brings me to the question, has anyone played around with different woofers, basically to try and make up for that 'hole' in the midrange? Perhaps a small full range driver could work well?
Bye for now
Inamelotone
Thanks so much for your enthusiastic response. Well I got the speakers home and hooked 'em up and... I must say I was rather bowled over! After years of Klipsch Heresy addiction (just about as far removed from the Heil philosophy as must be possible?) the PS9As made for a fascinating listen. Like you said the treble was something truly special, with so much air and detail and totally non-fatiguing, really quite wonderful. I found them particularly well matched to vintage tube amps - happily they happen to be quite efficient - as the warmth from the amp complement the speakers best. BUT... after a few days I can't help thinking there are a bit too 'cool' in the midrange. Which brings me to the question, has anyone played around with different woofers, basically to try and make up for that 'hole' in the midrange? Perhaps a small full range driver could work well?
Bye for now
Inamelotone
Had a pair of the PS-8A, liked 'em quite a bit; had a 10" passive I believe, and were quite heavy. Loved the vocals on those speaks! They didn't look special, but sounded it -- remember my buddy being amazed the way they sounded when I fired them up after a refoam. Buy 'em. :thmbsp:
EDIT. Whoops, just noticed that you did buy them.
I found that the vocals really came alive and everything really seemed to balance out with some power applied.
EDIT. Whoops, just noticed that you did buy them.
I found that the vocals really came alive and everything really seemed to balance out with some power applied.
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Inamelotone
Active Member
Right... sounds like a re-cap is the way to go then! Any thoughts on what caps are worth going for (talking reasonable money here!)
Bye for now
Inamelotone
Bye for now
Inamelotone
I have the Ls-8's a 10 radiator in the back, a 10 in front and that monopole heil.
I dont feel they lack mid range, yes they dont integrate too well ... but they actually lack some low end. I wont count them in much lower than 75. However drop em in the fronts set the HT amp to cut em off @80 and send it to the sub and they will out perform anything else. They are monopole, but IMHO, that takes care of the room placement, just toss em anywhere, corner, wall etc etc ... no velvet elvis poster neccesary.
The tempest series IMHO looks rather plain and sounds like somehting costing 10X
Cool.
Srinath.
I dont feel they lack mid range, yes they dont integrate too well ... but they actually lack some low end. I wont count them in much lower than 75. However drop em in the fronts set the HT amp to cut em off @80 and send it to the sub and they will out perform anything else. They are monopole, but IMHO, that takes care of the room placement, just toss em anywhere, corner, wall etc etc ... no velvet elvis poster neccesary.
The tempest series IMHO looks rather plain and sounds like somehting costing 10X
Cool.
Srinath.
Yeah I mostly agree that the low end isn't all that, but the ones with the rear passives like the Ls8 you mention really do prefer corners or walls vs. the middle of the room. However the OP's PS9As can be used anywhere like you say since there is no passive if I remember correctly. And yes, they rock with a sub!:thmbsp:
+1 on that. Thought the bass was actually quite decent, particularly with plenty of power applied.
Modding ESS? Down that road lies madness. My best advice is get KEFs when you need midrange and leave them to be what they are.
Or Madness.
KEF's? vs ESS your opinion of course. IMHO my upgraded AMT3"S would give the KEF"S I've heard a run for their money in midrange detail. Up past the lower mids, there is little comparison, Heil hands down IMHO.
Plus there is added satisfaction of making a great speaker awesome, instead of merly buying them off the showroom floor. DIY:thmbsp:
Don't get me wrong, KEF"S are a nice speaker, but not the last word on midrange detail by any means. A very dynamic speaker for sure, like the AMT3's. This is the second comment I have seen on KEF's vs ESS AMT'S. You have to remember the ESS AMT"S are a design dating to the 1970's. A fair comparison would be either a modified AMT, or some of the newer Heil AMT designs. The Heil was way ahead of it's time, similair to the Magnapan, and it's has taken both a numbers of years to really realize the full potential of these desgns, like many, if not most designs and products go.
The addition of a true midrange, like the PS1220's (small Heil) or a transition driver, like the AMT3's will integrate the woofer better with the Heil.
Those could be a starting point, and adjust the crossover points to suit your heils and woofers.
I don't think it would be that difficult, ther is a bunch of info here on that.
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Corners and walls
They prefer corners and walls eh ... well that explains why they sounded so good in my front, they were corner and wall ... sat on coffee tables 18" tall.
I have the amt 1b's in the mids, well in the middle of the room, they obviously need clear air all around em ...
I think the combo works great ... ls8 fronts by wall and amt1 mids in middle of the room.
Cool.
Srinath.
They prefer corners and walls eh ... well that explains why they sounded so good in my front, they were corner and wall ... sat on coffee tables 18" tall.
I have the amt 1b's in the mids, well in the middle of the room, they obviously need clear air all around em ...
I think the combo works great ... ls8 fronts by wall and amt1 mids in middle of the room.
Cool.
Srinath.
Susurus
Resolution:6.62×10^-34
Dipoles are tricky! Corner placement is just one way to attenuate the back wave, better to pull them away from the wall and do a wall acoustic treatment behind them like Maggies. Velvet Elvis posters work.
automojo just my experience here, only KEF's I've had were somewhat high up the ladder, Reference Series 104/3. They had much better midrange than any Heil / ESS I've heard. (My friend has 3 sets of the Great Heil dipole AMT-1's so I've heard them a lot.)
By better I don't mean more detail, I mean more musically satisfying to me--especially the integration of the low mids. Detailed enough--the rare earth coax tweeter was clear but not etched. And it imaged like a Ranger sniper. 'What do you call a KEF with a bad midrange? B & W.' (ducks) :arrow:
Heils can slice a bit rough with some amps at high SPL. And it's always tempting to crank them up...
Modifying is not the same as a refurb or caps upgrade.
Adding a mid driver and redesigning the xover is major surgery, like adding a second eye to a cyclops. Fun to try but often results in an abomination. But your idea of adding the small Heil with the Great is the best suggestion I've heard so far!
Repeat, all IMHO/ YMMV.
automojo just my experience here, only KEF's I've had were somewhat high up the ladder, Reference Series 104/3. They had much better midrange than any Heil / ESS I've heard. (My friend has 3 sets of the Great Heil dipole AMT-1's so I've heard them a lot.)
By better I don't mean more detail, I mean more musically satisfying to me--especially the integration of the low mids. Detailed enough--the rare earth coax tweeter was clear but not etched. And it imaged like a Ranger sniper. 'What do you call a KEF with a bad midrange? B & W.' (ducks) :arrow:
Heils can slice a bit rough with some amps at high SPL. And it's always tempting to crank them up...
Modifying is not the same as a refurb or caps upgrade.
Adding a mid driver and redesigning the xover is major surgery, like adding a second eye to a cyclops. Fun to try but often results in an abomination. But your idea of adding the small Heil with the Great is the best suggestion I've heard so far!
Repeat, all IMHO/ YMMV.
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Dipoles are tricky! Corner placement is just one way to attenuate the back wave, better to pull them away from the wall and do a wall acoustic treatment behind them like Maggies. Velvet Elvis posters work.
automojo just my experience here, only KEF's I've had were somewhat high up the ladder, Reference Series 104/3. They had much better midrange than any Heil / ESS I've heard. (My friend has 3 sets of the Great Heil dipole AMT-1's so I've heard them a lot.)
By better I don't mean more detail, I mean more musically satisfying to me--especially the integration of the low mids. Detailed enough--the rare earth coax tweeter was clear but not etched. And it imaged like a Ranger sniper. 'What do you call a KEF with a bad midrange? B & W.' (ducks) :arrow:
Heils can slice a bit rough with some amps at high SPL. And it's always tempting to crank them up...
Modifying is not the same as a refurb or caps upgrade.
Adding a mid driver and redesigning the xover is major surgery, like adding a second eye to a cyclops. Fun to try but often results in an abomination. But your idea of adding the small Heil with the Great is the best suggestion I've heard so far!
Repeat, all IMHO/ YMMV.
What I ment was either adding a midrange driver, such as the ESS PS1220 did with the smaller Heil, or adding a transitional driver, basically a midwoofer with the Great Heil, like the AMT3's. The AMT 1's lacked this transitional driver, so it was asking the Heil to do too much, as some have pointed out, (midrange suckout, honkiness, etc).
The AMT3's was ESS attempt to fix this problem.
The only problem I found with the AMT3's was the stock woofers low output vs the Heil. The midrange performance or integration to the lower mids, and upper bass was fine, the lower bass output was the problem, in essence the woofers were not at the same level, as the transition driver (midwoofer) or Heil.
It was partially a Alnico discharge problem, but IMHO a better more modern woofer was needed.
The solid, heavy, cabinet design really provides a great foundation for solid, non boomy, non resonate, bass response.
I did a ton of research, and bugged alot of people here as well, and decided on the Eminece 1040Sf as the closest, cost effective match. I think Eminece took a pro driver woofer, and made it more suited for home audio, with a better low frequency response, and a large 9.1 xmax, and very sensitive (93-94 db as I recall)for a audio woofer. They give a deep, natural bass response, when used correctly
I have to admit, I am really suprised how well it worked.
I has all the detail and musicality you could want, but now it's not the Heil show, like the AMT1's, but it has become a full range, well integrated speaker that provides a wide musical and airy, soundstage, one of the great things I like about Heils. As one of my non audio freinds mentioned, "a wall of sound".
In other words there is alot of detail in all the ranges, but the even output and integration of the drivers doesn't make this so apparent-it just sounds very, very good in all ranges-and frankly makes me, my two twin girls, and my freinds want to get up and dance when the music calls for it!
As far as the crossover, it was just a recap/reresistor/rewire in this speaker, no re-design.
My other pair will be a totally new crossover, following this design.
As with a lot of things in life, even with research, etc, luck is involved when trying to obtain certain goals, and I was very lucky here as well, way beyond my expectations.
But of course many others did the trench work, for me, I just weeded the information out-not that difficult.
That's the main I really like about AK, it gives you the way's and means to upgrade and modify componets to get the better results, given their basic design pluses, and negatives. Obviously the best results start with a good basic design
In the past, I would have either upgraded, or looked at something else.
At least with speakers, that's not the case anymore.!:thmbsp:
I agree about the Heils making you want to crank them up! I thinjk, in the case of the AMT3's even given their OVERALL sensitivety(91db or so) they would work best with around 200wpc of clean, preferably "neutral" sounding power. I use H/K SS amps, which seem to work well with just about any speaker I have tried them with, as they are very neutral sounding, and don't clip hard if you get carried away-although I don't think I have ever driven my H/K 1.5 into clipping.
Rocky mentioned they sound nice with tubes, and I will surely give that a try someday.
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By they way, didn't mean to steal your thread
!I'd try a recap first, the stock ESS caps aren't the best, replace the resistors as well, and if present, replace the circuit breaker with a fuse, and fuse holder.
You may able to adjust the crossover slightly to improve the mids.
Way beyond my capabilty, but perhaps GordonW might be able to help.
Usually the smaller Heil 2 ways sound more integrated than the larger, and lager woofer 2-ways.
Who knows, you maybeavle to take the 3 way PS1220 crossover design, and aplly it to your smaller 2way. A bit of work, but it may turn out to work well.
#2 AMT3 Pair New Crossovers-Making Some Progress!
Thought I would post a couple pictures of one of my new crossovers-A total overhaul/replacement. The only thing I reused was the terminal/fuse/switch plate and switch. 1/2 inch oak board. Dremel multi-tool was used to make the square hole for the switch-if you don't have one of these-get one-or the Rockwell equivelent if you do any woodworking and/or repairs-it's a awesome tool!!
Caps are P.E. Dayton poly's-Dayton resistors-the smaller inductors are 15ga Jantzen air coils from P.E., and the large inductors is a custom wound 14 ga 2.4 mh from Meniscus Audio.
The leftover double sided tape on the caps was from a previous project I went another route with.
This- obviously is before wiring, and the resistors have yet to be glued down.
I used some neat tie wraps from P.E. (#080-847) that have screw attachment holes, and #8 1/2 deep screws. The componets will still need to be hot glued, but this way the mounting board will sit flat on the back panel without tie wraps coming through the back-yet still give a better and sturdier attacment method than just plain glue or silicone-enabling a good seal as well.
Will follow with wired photo's-each circuit (woofer-mid-tweeter) will have color coded wire-not only for myself-but hopefully it will be helpful for those who may attemp this in the future.
Thought I would post a couple pictures of one of my new crossovers-A total overhaul/replacement. The only thing I reused was the terminal/fuse/switch plate and switch. 1/2 inch oak board. Dremel multi-tool was used to make the square hole for the switch-if you don't have one of these-get one-or the Rockwell equivelent if you do any woodworking and/or repairs-it's a awesome tool!!
Caps are P.E. Dayton poly's-Dayton resistors-the smaller inductors are 15ga Jantzen air coils from P.E., and the large inductors is a custom wound 14 ga 2.4 mh from Meniscus Audio.
The leftover double sided tape on the caps was from a previous project I went another route with.
This- obviously is before wiring, and the resistors have yet to be glued down.
I used some neat tie wraps from P.E. (#080-847) that have screw attachment holes, and #8 1/2 deep screws. The componets will still need to be hot glued, but this way the mounting board will sit flat on the back panel without tie wraps coming through the back-yet still give a better and sturdier attacment method than just plain glue or silicone-enabling a good seal as well.
Will follow with wired photo's-each circuit (woofer-mid-tweeter) will have color coded wire-not only for myself-but hopefully it will be helpful for those who may attemp this in the future.
Attachments
DCinDC
I'm here to fix it
I'm fond of those smaller Heils. I've bought several pairs. One set is in a much modded pair of HPM 150s with Lanzar subs as woofers. Not flat but great sounding.
Even the little Heils can get quite loud, but will not take uber power. I know.
The Daytons are fine caps (I use them) but you will hear the improvement that more expensive caps will make.
The biggest challange is pairing with a woofer with enough efficiency. Even ESS kinda failed in that regard.
BTW that tweeter is covered on the back so I don't get all the talk of dipoles.
Even the little Heils can get quite loud, but will not take uber power. I know.
The Daytons are fine caps (I use them) but you will hear the improvement that more expensive caps will make.
The biggest challange is pairing with a woofer with enough efficiency. Even ESS kinda failed in that regard.
BTW that tweeter is covered on the back so I don't get all the talk of dipoles.
I'm fond of those smaller Heils. I've bought several pairs. One set is in a much modded pair of HPM 150s with Lanzar subs as woofers. Not flat but great sounding.
Even the little Heils can get quite loud, but will not take uber power. I know.
The Daytons are fine caps (I use them) but you will hear the improvement that more expensive caps will make.
The biggest challange is pairing with a woofer with enough efficiency. Even ESS kinda failed in that regard.
BTW that tweeter is covered on the back so I don't get all the talk of dipoles.
A efficient woofer, low distrotion woofer is a must with the Heils-the AMT3 has the advantage of using a smaller 'midwooofer' transition driver that makes a huge difference in my experience over the 2-ways-the PS1220 was similiar with a true midrange-and sound very good as well.
The AMT3's-while fairly efficient (91or 92db/watt) can take huge amounts of power, and with the woofer upgrade can play as loud and distortion free as you and your amp can handle.
As far as caps go-I have had mixed results with so called 'designer caps'-not so much with the sound( I don't really buy into that- I have yet to hear a person A/B different types of good quality caps same speaker type-same crossover type-I believe their caps were out of spec before-and has little to do with the type)-but I think the tolerences vs spec where off-and created the different sound. With the AMT3's, in my experience-what's more important is keeping the tolerences tight on the caps and inductors-more than what brand the caps are. To me a quality cap is a quality cap-regardless of who made it-there a good and poor polys-ditto with electrolytic.
A night and day difference between caps manufactored today vs 60's and 70's in term of tolerences and longevity.
Also updating the wiring and checking and redoing the connections-sealing and strengthening the baffles-cab's if needed is important-and would probably elect to spend time and funds here saved over expensive caps.
Ditto with blocking the sides of the Great Heil with acoustical foam to prevent the mids from wrapping around the housing and canceling each other-leaving the rear open.
Not trying to pick on your taste-or your ears-I just have yet to hear any evidence that a $55 cap with the same MEASURED values and tolerences will sound any different than a $5 cap.
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Interesting- I have been looking at Zilch's crossover modification for this speaker I have a pair from the early 80's I bought on sale for $29.95 each, along with a complete Sytem 7 I use in the guest bedroom-I got off Eaby for $30. The radio reception is actually very good-suprisingly so- the sound is decent-a step up from a boom boox. They are a decent speaker in their day-given their simplistic and compromised crossover-good for backgound music.
Zilches experiment is interesting-but the little use they get doesn't seem worth it to me to spend that kind of money on them, as they get the job done in their current duties.
Zilches experiment is interesting-but the little use they get doesn't seem worth it to me to spend that kind of money on them, as they get the job done in their current duties.