Help! I can't get rid of distortion!

[triode]

Heres a couple more for good measure.

Its also important to note that its related to s sort of sounds, and its worse towards the spindle. My reading on sibilance seems like that may be going on.

This is a stab, but might it be related to the fact that the receiver probably could use a re-cap?

The blues, jazz...they sound pretty good. Rock, not so much. Makes my ears tired. Switch it to digital (I was just listening to Freddie King) and it sounds good.

Could it be that cart is shot?

I think your alignment is way off. The stylus is supposed to be in the center of the big crosshair formed by the long line going across. Looks like yours is placed way behind that ? You could try cleaning your stylus too to see if that helps anything.
Now be careful when using paper printed protractor. One tiny nudge with the stylus sitting on the paper could rip the stone off the cantilever. Dont ask how I know. I always leave the amp running while aligning so that I can tell from the noise of the stylus how much torture it is enduring.

 

[Mr Boochie]

The cartridge doesn't appear to be aligned straight, in the headshell. One mounting screws is further forward than the other. The two screws should be aligned the same distance from the ends of the headshell.

 

[mkane]

triode, good call. He's 5mm short

 

[Jkaput]

Honestly, those are shitty pics. I tried my best, but it was almost impossible with a cell phone, a light, and the paper alignment cue to get things lined up and still have access to my thumb to take the damn thing. I put the second round in there b/c of that. I was worried that dropping bad pics into this would throw people off. Its about as square across the front of the protractor - dead on the line - as I can make it, and I do a lot of carpentry.

To the alignment of the cartridge - I agree, its not straight. The reason that the bolts aren't parallel is b/c (this may totally be an issue, I have no idea) in order to achieve the inner alignment across the front of the protractor, the cartridge needed to be loosened and canted inward at the angle you see in the image. In the image, this is reflected by the off center head positions of those bolts. Are the nuts supposed to be aligned straight across the head piece Mr Boochie? In the reading I did, it seemed like loosening them, then tightening them when square was the way to do it. But this IS my first rodeo.

On the paper protractor (which I made sure true to scale) its square across the front of the protractor (in the images I thought it was better to show the stylus than have it lined up perfect, but if it helps to take a pic of that to show you it is, i can do that too...), and to my naked eye it looks like its pretty true in terms of the gap btwn the bottom of the stylus on both sides of the needle (azimuth?). Its really hard to photograph this stuff in an accurate way.

I fully appreciate everyone chiming in and trying to help me out. Its hard for me to figure out how to show you all whats going on here and just as hard to describe it with my limited vocabulary. I feel like, after aligning the living hell out of it, its pretty good across the front. Outside of that, i'm not sure. I can't really check azimuth w/o better tools than I have.

I can say this...i'm learning a lot.

Thanks folks. This is a great community to be a part of. It reminds me of the VW community - lots of really smart folks willing to help more recent people out. This is how the wheel keeps turning. .

If only more of America operated this way.

 

[mkane]

Bolts not straight don't mean much. In one of you latest photos it looks like the diamond isn't where it's suppose to be as a starting point. 5mm short.

 

[mkane]

Heres a couple more for good measure.

Its also important to note that its related to s sort of sounds, and its worse towards the spindle. My reading on sibilance seems like that may be going on.

This is a stab, but might it be related to the fact that the receiver probably could use a re-cap?

The blues, jazz...they sound pretty good. Rock, not so much. Makes my ears tired. Switch it to digital (I was just listening to Freddie King) and it sounds good.

Could it be that cart is shot?

Your first pic, the diamond is 5mm short of the starting point crosshairs.

 

[Jkaput]

I didn't tee it up man. Its also reflecting the point from which I shot the image. It pushes it back. I can if you want me to though. I wasn't trying to show the alignment. I should have been more intentional about that. I was responding (at least in my head) to the question about azimuth and sibilance.

 

[patient_ot]

You may find an arc protractor generated using the CH program easier to use. However, you need to make absolutely sure the correct info is entered into the program and that it's printed to scale - check reference lines. Personally I hate 2 point protractors and don't use them.

 

[triode]

Agree. The advantage of arc protractor is that you dont have to sweat over making the sight line point to the pivot super accurately, or if the spindle hole is cut to laser perfection. You can just check if the stylus follows the arc, even if its in +/- error. As long as the error remains same at the start of the arc and the end of the arc, the protractor positioning is good. and once locked no need to move it again (my stylus sacrifice can be attributed to that )

To the OP - setting up a vintage TT can be a time consuming challenge for a first timer. Dont be discouraged. but also nothing wrong in ditching it and just buying a new modern tt all setup and ready to go to start enjoying your vinyl right away.

 

[mkane]

First time is always a PITA. A 5 minute job once your seasoned.

 

[percivilla]

That alignment is waay off. With a Stevenson alignment in a Japanese table the cartridge should be pretty much square in the headshell. Square it up in the headshell and then move it forward or backwards until the headshell lines up with the lines on the protractor when the tip is on the crosshairs.

Also make sure you have the tracking force correct and understanding how that works.

Wonky alignment and overly light tracking will both cause what you describe. I find that with a good condition stylus, correct alignment and tracking force, it's actually fairly challenging to get a turntable to skip.

 

[Jkaput]

Okay, so I was squaring the bottom of the stylus housing (which I can assure that it is completely square at this point). So your saying I should instead start by squaring the cartridge in the headstock (which i was when I started this originally) and then move the now straight cart within the headstock until it lines up on the cart? When I started the stylus housing itself was not square to the protractor crosshairs and this is why I moved it inward to make it so.

I definitely understand the tracking force piece - its straightforward. It's set correctly. Its set to the high end of the force specified for the Nagatron model.

There is one more detail here that may be of interest. The distortion is mainly concentrated in the left channel. The right is pretty much clean. It really only shows up on the song closes to the spindle.

 

[percivilla]

Okay, so I was squaring the bottom of the stylus housing (which I can assure that it is completely square at this point). So your saying I should instead start by squaring the cartridge in the headstock (which i was when I started this originally) and then move the now straight cart within the headstock until it lines up on the cart? When I started the stylus housing itself was not square to the protractor crosshairs and this is why I moved it inward to make it so.

I definitely understand the tracking force piece - its straightforward. It's set correctly. Its set to the high end of the force specified for the Nagatron model.

There is one more detail here that may be of interest. The distortion is mainly concentrated in the left channel. The right is pretty much clean. It really only shows up on the song closes to the spindle.

Exactly. Don't twist the cartridge to get it to align. Most Japanese tables were designed around Stevenson alignment. The cartridge should be basically straight in the headshell. If you move the cartridge towards the very back of the headshell, the lines on the protractor will point outwards, if you slide the cartridge toward the end, they'll point inwards. You want the point where the lines are parallel to the sides of the headshell and therefore the cartridge as well.

At this point don't worry too much about the cantilever angle. The anti skate will usually make it look like it's off by flexing it inward. It'll straighten out when a record groove is pulling on it. As long as the cartridge is straight the stylus will be too.

The extra distortion on the inner grooves is probably happening for two reasons. First is because the alignment is off and just gets moreso as the arm gets closer to the middle. The other is that you're likely running too much anti skate. In MY experience, I find that most tables sound best with fairly minimal anti skate. I usually run mine at around half of the tracking force. Get the alignment sorted first and then experiment with the anti skate.

 

[triode]

It does sound like too much anti-skate (or too less vtf). Better to confirm vtf with a measuring scale. Sometimes aftermarket stylus need a bit more.
Like percivilla suggested, your best bet now after trying everything with alignment is to square the cart with the headshell. And then move it front/back in very tiny steps (1mm or less at a time) until you find a spot where it has least or no distortion on the innermost grooves.

edit: Your TT has a stock overhang of 12mm so you could start there. It also has a moveable tonearm base which adds another variable to it but lets assume for now no one changed the stock position of the tonearm base.

 

[triode]

afterthought: Is your turntable perfectly level ?

 

[Mr Boochie]

This is what I do to be sure the headshell is close to level. I use a small circular bubble level. Denon used to sell nice ones at Audio Stores, in the 1990s. Dial the counterweight back, so that the weight and level apply the proper tracking force. It's amazing, but too light or too heavy tracking can be easily picked up with the level.

The most parallel portion of a standard Technics headshell is just past the knurled connector knob. The Sony headshell is parallel its entire length. Very slight changes in the angle of the headshell side view counterclockwise/clockwise and length wise front-to-back positions is easily picked up with the level.

At least this way you know the headshell is somewhat level. Then, compare the stylus contact point with the vinyl or alignment tool disc . Listening to the album is always the final judge.

Good luck!

 

[Nashou66]

Many styli are not aligned perfectly from the factory. So first look carefully at the alignment of the stylus in the body of the cart itself. This will allow you to determine how you should proceed . If it straight use the body, if not, align to the cantilever ( which you do anyways with he body alignment as well). However now you also have to make sure the diamond is square on the cantilever. This will affect azimuth .
Also when placing the needle down onto the record look for many side ways deflection. If it deflects one side or the other , adjust anti skate to a point where there is the least amount of deflection either way.

The proceed with the alignment of the cantilever to the grid .

Athanasios

 

[revox-b77]

What is the overhang spec for a Sansui? OP may have better luck getting the cartridge Square in the headshell and measuring the distance with a ruller.

 

[revox-b77]

I recently replaced the stylus on a nagatron catridge (from 1985) with one from audio technica

My other question is: Is an Audio Technica stylus compatible with this Nagatron cartridge? OP do you know the model number of the Nagatron cart by any chance? What is the model number of the stylus?