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Help me build an Empire "hot rod" cartridge

Drjay

Drjay

Active Member
I have been having fun playing around with a variety of cartridges but only have one Empire, an EXL20 Improved with a EVG 237 stylus. I'm looking to move up several notches in sound quality and want to keep the total cost of the cart and stylus under $100 if possible.
It seems from what I have read in the long "Anyone using Empire?" thread that perhaps the best approach is to select the body based on what the best generally available (and affordable) stylus is. So, it seems that an excellent stylus choice might be the 239 DET from VOM but I have no clue what a suitable body would be and am hoping that one of you Empire gurus can point me in the right direction.
Alternatively, if you think a different stylus would be a better starting point please chime in with a stylus-body recommendation. I am not committed to the 239 DET, it just seemed to be regarded as an excellent bang-for-the-buck stylus to serve as the basis for an excellent performing stylus-cart combo.
Thanks in advance! Jay
 
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Turntableneedles has the 239-DET stylus listed as working with the 2000E/III, 400TC, and 2000E/II cartridges. That auction site has 2000E/III bodies available for $49 BIN.

I'm not sure how those carts compare to the rest of the 239 series, other than being higher compliance. I own two Empire carts (66E/X and 999TE/X Improved) that fall into this category, and heard another (66QE/X) from a friend's turntable I restored for him. I like them a lot. I own the 239-DEC and 4239-D7C styli, and used a 4239-DEC on my friend's turntable.
 
Buying an available high-performance stylus at a good price and then (having chosen a good but more available cartridge/stylus to listen to meanwhile) wait for a suitable body to come along is a generally good strategy, because usually the stylus is the hardest thing to find.

Sometimes, though, the body isn't that much easier, and that's the case at the moment with the high-performance 2000Z and its clones (EXL 30, 2000T, etc.). Recently AKer Grainger49 bravely went on this quest, which was successful in the end, but took from June til August.

This body is unique and the styli that fit it are unique and don't fit any other bodies, just a small group of clones. Not the 2000E/III, not the 400TC.

By the way, the EXL 20 Improved is a good cartridge when it's tipped with a purple Empire S912E or white S910E stylus (both are Pfanstiehl-indexed as 239-PDE).
 
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The Empire adventure develops

Thanks for the info guys! Very helpful. I have currently on order a 2000 Elll and a 239 DET stylus. (total $80.00) I also have just ordered a 239 PDE for my EXL 20 Improved.
What I'm hoping for now is a more complete list of what bodies I should be watching beside the 2000Z, EXL 30 and 2000T. You mention clones but as a complete newbe to Empire I don't know what the clones are. Is there a reference source that has that info? I don't want to be an information pest.
One last question, are there any other affordable bodies that I should be watching for that would perform even better than the 2000Z and its clones?
I recently retired and am really enjoying the opportunity to revisit my analog audio roots. Thanks for the help!
Cheers,
Jay
 
Clones from other brands? Look up an Empire stylus and find the TurntableNeedles page. It lists them being compatible with carts from other brands. I had no idea this was happening actually.
 
Useful info

Hi All,

A very useful post in the "Anyone using Empire" thread that I just ran across for those interested in building a "hot rod empire" is #169. In it Empire guru Wualta lists a bunch of desireable Empire bodies which can serve as the chassis for a good generally available stylus.
Just passing it on to anyone interested...
 
I don't know the specs on total head weight including head shell for that cart. but give me a ball park and head shell needed? or are we talking total new arm and head shell? gloogling up 'hot rot' opens no specific link per jargon to empire.
 
I guess I can add my empire 598 uses a 1.5g load with sled. 1.8g? got a scale but can provide some weights, too. Also have 4-40 threads thumb screws if you have a light 1gm head weight or need raw brass stock heavier not easy to order one or two so got min order of many. easy to cut to length and drill out material for finer balance.
 
Drjay said:
...What I'm hoping for now is a more complete list of what bodies I should be watching beside the 2000Z, EXL 30 and 2000T.
Click to expand...
There's a much-updated list of 2000Z clones in post 1697.

Drjay said:
You mention clones but as a complete newbe to Empire I don't know what the clones are. Is there a reference source that has that info?
Click to expand...
Clones are just that, exact copies of an original, though with different model numbers (usually random and meaningless) and (sometimes) different cosmetics. We are told that most of these were created as house-brand models for retailers/wholesalers. Nearly all the big mfrs. made clones. Empire is famous/infamous for going clone-crazy.

Clone models, being less well known, often go at auction for much less than an original. I call that "playing the clone game".

Retailer turntableneedles.com (abbr. "TTN") has collected lists of clones. There are a lot of repeats and a few errors, but overall it's very useful. The list linked to above was edited and corrected from TTN's list. This is just about the only useful "reference source" we have, although an old grizzled retailer with old catalogs and brochures might be able to help. Failing that, you can just flail and thrash along with us. Eventually we come to a consensus.

Think of the current market as a weird combination of a few companies that survived the trauma of the Turntable Apocalypse (aka the rise of digital media), with most of the old US mfrs decades gone, and where roving bands of mutated audiophiles pick over the rubble of a devastated radioactive landscape where documents are few and badly-made copies of original styli are common as gravel but sold at premium prices

Drjay said:
One last question, are there any other affordable bodies that I should be watching for that would perform even better than the 2000Z and its clones?
Click to expand...
Outside the Empire world? Either way, you'll have to define "affordable" as it applies to your explorations. $100 total? No more, ever?

As for "better", that can mean lots of different things as well.

That 440D stylus Gretsch mentioned is bit on the spendy side, and ideally you'd have to find the appropriate body for it (your EXL 20 would do in a pinch) but it's a good example of an earlier Empire cartridge that in some respects surpasses the 2000Z, mostly in the shape of its diamond and the relative immunity of its low-inductance body to cable capacitance. There are other Empire possibilities, but they're becoming very hard to find in the post-apocalyptic landscape.
 
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I really enjoy the challenge of getting high performance from budget components. 20 years ago I built a Ford Pinto hatchback with a 351 Ford Cleveland engine and a 9 inch '57 Ford station wagon rear end that was killer quick and cost under $700 total. Now that I'm old and retired I like doing similar things in audio.
I love vinyl and have some success with hot rodded carts, with both my ADC Integra with a Jico RSZ improved stylus ($90 total) and a Pickering XSV 3000 with an LP Gear Vivid Line stylus ($105 total) sounding to me better than a Denon 103R ($270) and Shure V15 IV with a Shure microridge stylus ($375) that I bought before I retired.
So, I am looking to do something similar with the Empire brand. I could go as high as $200 total if I thought it would give me similar results to what I have gotten with the ADC and Pickering. I'm enjoying the process of learning about Empires and would appreciate any guidance as to affordable (ie $200 or less) body stylus combos that are worth considering and wouldn't require months of auction site watching to obtain.
Thanks for all the great input.
Jay
 
Drjay said:
...affordable (ie $200 or less) body stylus combos that are worth considering and wouldn't require months of auction site watching to obtain.
Click to expand...
Then if you want to do an Empire hotrod, I'd look very hard at that 440D that Gretsch pointed out. It may not be the best price I've seen on that stylus, but (along with the 1000ZE/X and 4000D/I,II,III and the 2000Z) that's one of the best cartridges/styli Empire made, and they don't come along very often.

You could, as I said, use the 440D in your EXL until you find a 440D/5000LAC/4000D/I,II,III body. The highest highs will be a tiny bit rolled off, but if you can set your preamp to a 100k ohm load, the sparkle will return. The 2000X body (or one of its clones) will also work properly.

I should at least mention the other Empire possibilities, though they come with buts. The Empires made from 1980 onward look very different. The bodies are easy to find and some great styli were made for them, but they came late in the game, so these TOTL styli are exceedingly rare now. Styli for the 800UFR, 1000GT, 1080LT, LTD750GT, OP155GT, RM95GT are similar in many ways to the 2000Z's-- technically superior, in fact-- but just try to find one. You could also Dremel that 440D stylus grip to fit an EDR.9 body, if one waddles your way.

Then there are other, non-Empire possibilites: One of my favorite hotrods is the Hyperelliptical Jico N97LT stylus ($80 shipped) in a Shure M97ED or M97xE body. Or the EVG 4108-DET stylus ($17 shipped) in that Integra body. It's not a ZLM or Astrion stylus, so it's a bang-for-buck hotrod. In the same vein, the 4241-DID EVG stylus in a cheap '80s Empire like the 100 S (or the cheapest one you can find that looks like the 100 S).

By the way, the coils of the 2000E and 2000Z are not the same, but they're not too far off (~600 and ~800mH, respectively, in actual measurements). The 2000Z's laminated magnetic structure, however, is very different, and unique among Empire carts. Getting the Z stylus to stay centered in the E body turns out to be just a bit difficult, because the fit is much looser than, say, putting a V15 Type IV stylus in an M97xE, which will also work after a fashion.

I was never happy with the sound of the S915E in a 700mH 400 TC body and quickly decided it would be better to chuck the fuss and get the higher output and flatter response with the appropriate body. Doesn't mean it can't be made to work with EQ, loading, futzing, etc.
 
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Progress

Hi All,
I finally got a chance to try out the EXL20 Improved with the 237 DET stylus today and like it a lot. I only compared it to a Shure M91 ED with low mileage original Shure stylus, but felt the EXL was significantly richer with better bass than the Shure although not quite as detailed on the top.
Carol's needles says their 237 DET is a Jico, (probably their generic .3 X .7) and it most likely is, since it has the tell-tail blue dot on the stylus. It is a great low buck combo since the total investment was $30.00.
I have been very pleased with the $56.00 Jico fine line styli obtainable from them on their Japanese web site. Does anyone know of an Empire body which has one of these available and is of suitable quality to benefit from it?
Thanks!
Jay
 
I just got the LP gear vivid line stylus for the Empire 2000e III and have spun a few sides . First impressions , much more detail and top end , swapping back and forth to the TTN generic one . Also a tighter fit . Twice the price of the TTN one though . But I think it is very nice upgrade as the OEM ones are no longer available and were big bucks when they were available from Bluz Brothers if I recall . I do love the sound of that Empire though
 
Hot rodding is fun, but I got my best Empire sound quality through patience and watchfullness on E bay. I wound up getting a 2000Z with a new in the box Walco stylus for $67.00. I also got an equally great sounding LTD 500 with a like new original stylus for $58.00 The bargains do come along if one is patient. Both of these hold their own sonically with most of the cartridges I paid much more for years ago before discovering Empire. I have never tried a Vivid line stylus for an Empire, but I did get one for a Stanton 881 and felt it was almost as nice as my low hour Stereohedron stylus, so I'm not surprised it sounds excellent.
 
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