Help me date this pie safe...

[Filmboydoug]

Bought a pie safe the other day and am wondering if someone here has an idea of when it was made. Any educated guesses are appreciated. Thanks!

Front

Inside

Lock inside of bottom door

Latch on front

 

[Champco]

It is not in original condition. Look at the nails and screws to age it. The hardware looks to be modern reproduction with it's condition. The latch is very interesting inset in the wood.
Old Pie safes are short. This looks to be a cupboard. The Panels gives it the pie safe look. Lock looks to be 1920's, late but again looks reproduction. Not completely screwed in and varnished over. It's a nice job.
Look at the nails. Square nails or round. I have a couple cupboards. One has no nails in it. It's all mortise & tenons construction with wooden pegs, and dove tail joints.

 

[Filmboydoug]

Nails are square.

 

[Sq1]

I would guess that it is old just by looking at the hardware, slotted screws, square cut nails. It may have started out differently, then panels added later. All that being said, I used square cut nails for trim work in my old house so you really need to see things in person.

 

[Quadman2]

A tough call!

Little in the way of wear and tear if a true antique.

Fittings look old, but as suggested might have been added, but if taken off, might revel old or new application.

No orig markings what-so-ever as to builder?

Q

 

[LF240]

Pie safes can be somewhat difficult to date as they were ubiquitous from the 1700s through the first half of the 20th century. It looks like yours is made out of poplar, which was very common. The hardware seems age appropriate and not reproduction to my eye. I see what may be the remnants of black paint on the front catch and some screws have been replaced and some seem to be original like the upper and lower screws on the right side of the inside door lock. Could you post a picture of the drawer joinery? I'd like to see if the drawers are dovetailed and if so, whether the dovetails are hand cut or machine cut. If they are hand cut that would suggest that it was not "factory" made. The over all style suggests 1870s - 1920s.

 

[Spitfirejoe]

You want to date a pie safe? Well, OK.

I usually start with a clever pick-up line. Not the usual, "Did it hurt?" (pause for effect) "When you fell from heaven?"

 

[usedto]

You want to date a pie safe? Well, OK.

I usually start with a clever pick-up line. Not the usual, "Did it hurt?" (pause for effect) "When you fell from heaven?"

I was thinking more along the lines of a trip to an ice cream parlor.

 

[2526]

No pie is safe in my house.

 

[Filmboydoug]

Dovetail detail

 

[LF240]

Hand cut. My best guess is 1880ish from what I'm seeing.

I had an antique furniture restoration and reproduction business for about 25 years and I can say that if you asked three different "experts" you'd most likely hear 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s.

 

[Champco]

Hand cut. My best guess is 1880ish from what I'm seeing.

I had an antique furniture restoration and reproduction business for about 25 years and I can say that if you asked three different "experts" you'd most likely hear 1870s, 1880s, and 1890s.

The feet bottoms are awfully clean to be as old as you say. There is no way a cabinet can be in that condition on it's feet for all those years. Unless it stayed in one place and was never moved. What are the chances? I will post a couple pics of a couple i have that are no doubt old. This was refinished by someone. The drawers dovetail does look old But is that a peg or a round nail head between them?
Any hinge pictures??

 

[usedto]

The feet bottoms are awfully clean to be as old as you say. There is no way a cabinet can be in that condition on it's feet for all those years. Unless it stayed in one place and was never moved. What are the chances? I will post a couple pics of a couple i have that are no doubt old. This was refinished by someone. The drawers dovetail does look old But is that a peg or a round nail head between them?
Any hinge pictures??

With all due respects, being refinished may affect value, but not age. "Clean" feet may be just a sign of removing damage - still not affecting age. Replaced screws, additional nails, and poorly applied glue all tend to make me believe that it is older rather than newer.

Filmboudoug, I think you have a jewel. Nice purchase!!!

 

[Champco]

With all due respects, being refinished may affect value, but not age. "Clean" feet may be just a sign of removing damage - still not affecting age. Replaced screws, additional nails, and poorly applied glue all tend to make me believe that it is older rather than newer.

Filmboudoug, I think you have a jewel. Nice purchase!!!

What you say is true but reality is a number of boards pulled off a old barn and used to make a table and sold as a harvest table does not make the table old. Yet people sell these types of tables all the time. No doubt this is old but I doubt 1800,s. One way would be to see the construction of the bottom cabinet doors since the top ones have been clearly rebuilt. The OP has pride in this and should understand exactly what he owns. 1860's-1890's craftsmen were still using chisels to create paneled doors. The verticals mortised and the top and bottoms had tendons fitted into them. It took a lot of time to make. By the 1900's electricity made machining possible. It would be nice to see the bottom cabinet door details as well as hinges and screws. Still the feet showing little or no wear is tell tail of some sort of reconstruction which is normal. Almost no old pieces can survive without being maintained. I have taken many pieces apart to straighten things out. Some never can be straightened.

 

[El Rubio]

We had a local furniture store that sold what was termed “java furniture”. It was hand crafted solid wood furniture from southeast Asia. Some pieces, including many pie safes, were constructed similar to this. Most were made from mahogany, teak, or other exotic wood. Some were distressed or built with obvious flaws and had an old look about them. I’m no furniture expert, but that was my first impression. However, that could be because they always had a lot of pie safes.

 

[Hyperion]

Any chance the lower cupboard unit is an add-on and, the rest of the cupboard is upside down? - most (but not all) of the pictures of 'Pie Safes' that I can find have two drawers at the top and two cupboard doors at the bottom. I can find a couple in the configuration you have, so maybe the above is nonsense, but I find the position of the door catch on your one 'interesting'.

Like this:-

 

[LF240]

One way would be to see the construction of the bottom cabinet doors since the top ones have been clearly rebuilt.

What leads you to assume the top doors have been rebuilt? While I agree that proportionally this is taller than many pie safes and yes, more "cupboard like", I have seen more than a few unadulterated pie safes with these proportions. I've also seen many conversions - it was a thing around the turn of the last century (and still is). Without examining the piece in person, I'm not sold either way.

1860's-1890's craftsmen were still using chisels to create paneled doors.

Many craftsmen in 2021 use chisels to make panel doors as well. Wanna see some 1870s machine made panel doors? Check out early Eastlake pieces for example, thousands of them all over the country.

The verticals mortised and the top and bottoms had tendons fitted into them.

You got that backwards. Stiles (what you call "verticals") have tenons (not tendons) and rails ( "top and bottoms") are morticed. What type of joinery are you seeing that leads you to believe otherwise?

By the 1900's electricity made machining possible

There are thousands of examples of machine made furniture built prior to 1900 floating around this country. I have had many 1870s machine made pieces come through my shop. Long before electricity became commonplace, water and steam were used to power
machinery in furniture factories.

The op's piece has clearly been refinished and it looks to be a competent job, apart from the finish application to the metal hardware. As I mentioned earlier, dating these pieces can be difficult. I have seen a pie safe nearly identical to the op's with a known provenance of 1874. I have also seen similar examples from the 1920s. The fact that there is no maker's mark on the op's piece combined with the very narrow pins of the dovetailing on the drawer joinery are typical pre 1900 identifiers, as well as the lapping of the back boards and the lower door interior lock. I wasn't clear about the upper exterior latch earlier. While not original to the piece, it is not a reproduction and could very well be from the 1920s. Finally, the particular style and proportion of the op's piece suggest a form which was most prevalent in the 1880s and 1890s.

I stand by my previous assessment. And I could be wrong. In spite of being in the business for many years and dealing with many, many appraisers, I'm no expert. I do feel qualified to make an educated guess and have done so. Enjoy your pie safe Filmboydoug, she's a fine piece of furniture!

 

[LF240]

The drawers dovetail does look old But is that a peg or a round nail head between them?

This is a repair I have encountered countless times. The dovetail pins have been peened and a nail driven through the drawer side to tighten things up. I'll never understand why people are so hesitant to re glue a piece and tend to go straight to the hammer.

 

[Champco]

This is a repair I have encountered countless times. The dovetail pins have been peened and a nail driven through the drawer side to tighten things up. I'll never understand why people are so hesitant to re glue a piece and tend to go straight to the hammer.

Gorilla glue is a wonderful thing.
My wife at a house sale bought a oak secretary/cupboard. Two large drawers in the bottom, two large doors with glass above and a pull down shelf/desk which was a mess. She got it for $100. The back inside the cabinet was painted bright red and the sides were painted black as well as the outside case.
Thank god the draws and doors were spared. Removed them both and pulled the nails out of the back boards/ Removed they stripped well with Lightning Stripper as well as the black from the side wood, inside and out. Once stripped the long cracks appeared following the grain from bottom almost half way up. caused from abusing the drawers which were off track. Long story short, glued the sides back together solid and finished the wood with a darker oak after reassembly it's great today. If you look you can still see a crack but mostly unnoticeable. This side is made from three planks. The crack is in the front plank. We were then interested in primitive pine. This is our only oak piece.

 

[Champco]

What leads you to assume the top doors have been rebuilt?

They do not match. The frames are not the same size in width. May be it's a illusion but they look totally rebuilt. Still it does not date the piece. Would like the OP to measure the width of the wood frames of both doors to confirm. Bottom looks to be 1/4 in or so wider.

You got that backwards. Stiles (what you call "verticals") have tenons (not tendons) and rails ( "top and bottoms") are morticed. What type of joinery are you seeing that leads you to believe otherwise?

Yes I spelled it wrong Sorry.
mor·tise
/ˈmôrdəs

noun

1. a hole or recess cut into a part which is designed to receive a corresponding projection (a tenon) on another part so as to join or lock the parts together.
   "a mortise and tenon joint"
   

verb

1. join securely by using a mortise and tenon.
   "the top plate of the rudder assembly can be mortised to the top of the rudder post"

It would be these joints. They seem to be out of place according to you but then you are the expert here. They must be wrong.