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HELP - tonearm with no offset, overhang or side thrust.

Hi, One of the guys in the U/H development group on L/H used to manufacture & sell a LT arm & the arm got a very positive review on TNTaudio (so did my old Off Set arm, the reviewer actually bought it & it replaced his Wand arm).
He now has stopped selling his LT range & only used an U/H arm.
See & listen here to his system

Cheers
Hallo Dereck,

The LT air bearing arm you refer to was made by your pal Vic TransFi . He sold that business to a Russian guy a few years ago before COVID. ( He said so on LH sometimes ago) The LT air bearing arm of his is a faulty design as the arm wand is 6" long and the head is forced to drag the tail . It is a crap design just like the underperforming underhang arm .

deck.jpg
A much better air bearing LT was shown in these forums by someone. I forgot who and where. The cartridge was hanging directly under the air pipe.

Cheers
 
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wilzTBb.jpeg


 
Vic's arm is based on Poul Ladegaard's experimental arm from years ago. The inverted air channel is Vic's idea IIRC. I actually communicated with Vic about buying one but there was some question about whether it would fit on my Oracle Delphi.


Ladegaard wrote a B&K paper in the '70s about arm resonances, though his conclusions have not been widely adopted. Interestingly, he mentions that W&F owing to record warps increases proportionally with VTA and offset angle.

 
he mentions that W&F owing to record warps increases proportionally with VTA and offset angle.

Not quite. Warps drive the vertical resonance, which reaches the groove through the VTA. Eccentricity drives the horizontal resonance, which reaches it through the offset angle. Two separate inputs, and the offset path is the much smaller one. A tangential arm closes the small path and does nothing about the large one.
 
Not quite. Warps drive the vertical resonance, which reaches the groove through the VTA. Eccentricity drives the horizontal resonance, which reaches it through the offset angle. Two separate inputs, and the offset path is the much smaller one. A tangential arm closes the small path and does nothing about the large one.
Ladegaard makes no mention of eccentricity. Warps do drive temporal variations in VTF and it makes sense to me that these would act with skating (or AS) to drive a sideways W&F. Just another flaw in the AS reality that isn't addressed in the theory.
 
Ladegaard makes no mention of eccentricity. Warps do drive temporal variations in VTF and it makes sense to me that these would act with skating (or AS) to drive a sideways W&F. Just another flaw in the AS reality that isn't addressed in the theory.

He does discuss eccentricity, more than once. Figure 18 on page 7 labels the 0.5 and 1.2 Hz lines as record centring and ellipticity, and the text beside Figure 22 on page 9 says the spectrum below 10 Hz is totally influenced by the eccentricity and irregularities of the test record, fundamental about 0.55 Hz, with the 10th to 13th harmonics at high level. It is the dominant subsonic content in both his flutter and his rumble spectra.

The skating coupling you describe is real, but it’s the minor one. Warps modulate VTF, skating force rises and falls with it, and the arm moves sideways against the cantilever. The along-groove share of that goes through the offset angle like the direct path. The same VTF swing also drives the VTA path, and that one is larger by tan(VTA) over μ·sin²(offset), somewhere between five and ten times for a 20 degree VTA and a 23 degree offset, depending on the friction coefficient. Whatever the exact figure, the skating route is a fraction of the one he actually drew.

It isn’t unaddressed, either. Skating force is friction, which scales with VTF, times the sine of the angle between the groove tangent and the pivot line, which on an aligned arm is about the offset angle. A VTF that swings with warps gives a skating force that swings with warps; that follows directly. That a fixed anti-skate can only match the average is the standard compromise, not a hidden flaw.

Skating and anti-skate don’t appear anywhere in the paper. So that coupling is your mechanism, not his, and it isn’t what his offset remark was about. It’s fine as a hypothesis, but you brought the paper in as the authority for warps driving the offset path, and he never makes that connection.
 
It's been years since I read it but I'll take your word for it. Yes, the AS connection is mine but it seems self evident. And the standard compromise is what I call a flaw, simply because it is real yet ignored, along with the other mechanical shortcomings, and why some people prefer none at all in spite of the uneven wear.
 
Hi, Baerwald also wrote the formula for an U/H arm nearly 100 years ago, you have already been told that.

If you cannot understand the traces on post 231, there is little I can do, as it is in black & white. Well rather grey as the photos did not transfer very well.

You guys talk as though this is new, it is not. U/H has been going now for over 40 years, (1200 pieces of YSA-2 arms sold) so I think we can say it is now an established proven design.

Cheers
 
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I was actually having this thought last night, we're getting too hot in here and this thread has too much in it to burn for ego. Perhaps the discussion needs to separate; there are two different concepts here that should not be conflated.

First is how it sounds, it might sound better. There's plenty that's still voodoo about how we perceive distortion. Some good, some bad. These are opinions and are the hands on anecdotal info that we all appreciate. The second, and fully unrelated, is the math.

One should not use the math to justify or denigrate another's opinions on how it sounds.
I try very hard to not cross this line, I don't always succeed. How it sounds to the listener at hand is what matters. Full stop. Goes right in hand with not insulting somebody's gear.
 
Some people will only look at distortion figures and base their judgements solely on them. Others think that's all well and good, but how does it sound? Proponents of UH arms fall in the latter group. DJs use UH arms because of their rock stable tracking ability. I don't see why an audiophile can't do the same if they're okay with the elevated H2.
 
Hi, Thank you guys for the reasoned response at last.
S/Q,
I can advise that my Off Set Temaad Merlin Titanium arm was bought by several of my customers to replace their SME V's, one being a well known dealer in NZ. (this sets a bench mark for how it sounds against a very well known arm)
It was also reviewed previously by TNTaudio online mag & the reviewer also bought that arm replacing the 5-star Wand arm.
Then I found out about U/H & did some very positive trials with my 12.5'' & started this thread. After a year of trialling I felt confident to offer the option to my customers, with my arm you can use it as Off-set or U/H, the choice was yours. I also was near the point of retiring, so only 12 more production arms were made & offered as dual use. From those 12, 10 wrote back & opted for the U/H setting.
My U/H Merlin 12.5'' is quite superior (in IMHO) to my Off Set 12.5'' Merlin.
Since my retirement I have developed & use a 15'' Magnesium U/H (as recommended by Baerwald) and a 8.25'' Ceramic arm tube version. these two arms I consider are superior to my production 12.5'' U/H Merlin. The sound elevation was I can tell you, quite a large level, a bit like going from an Elliptical stylus to a Micro Line.
The 8.5'' arm is my daily use arm, matched to an Ortofon MC2000 mkII cart (re-tipped with Boron cantilever & M/L stylus)

Cheers Derek
 
Some people will only look at distortion figures and base their judgements solely on them. Others think that's all well and good, but how does it sound? Proponents of UH arms fall in the latter group. DJs use UH arms because of their rock stable tracking ability. I don't see why an audiophile can't do the same if they're okay with the elevated H2.
To clarify, DJs us underhung arms for their stability when scratching - in other words, moving the record backwards and forwards very quickly. There is no additional stability benefit when simply playing a record.

I'm of the camp that likes what I've heard from Underhung arms - I'm happy to admit it. That said, the measurements of higher distortion cannot be ignored, even though I can't explain how they correlate to the sound, nor am I going to attempt to hypothesise on this, as I simply don't know enough about it.

The evangelism and "every arm for 100 years has been wrong because I like the underhung sound" from some quarters is becoming a little tiresome, however.
 
To clarify, DJs us underhung arms for their stability when scratching - in other words, moving the record backwards and forwards very quickly. There is no additional stability benefit when simply playing a record.

DJs use UH arms because the lack of offset severely reduces lateral forces, helping to keep the stylus locked in the groove. This applies to either backwards or forwards, so I wouldn't say it doesn't provide additional stability for simple playback. In fact, additional stability is the whole point of UH arms. The higher H2 is the tradeoff.
 
Hi, Baerwald also wrote the formula for an U/H arm nearly 100 years ago, you have already been told that.

If you cannot understand the traces on post 231, there is little I can do, as it is in black & white. Well rather grey as the photos did not transfer very well.

You guys talk as though this is new, it is not. U/H has been going now for over 40 years, (1200 pieces of YSA-2 arms sold) so I think we can say it is now an established proven design.

Cheers
Don´t see any traces in post 231, did you mean post 239? That one clearly show the underhung arm to be worst. Compare the underhung with the linear tracker for the same cartridge and you clearly see how the underhung has higher distortion at the outer radius where the angular error is largest, and the difference reduces towards the inner null just as theory predicts. The pivoted arms are also better than the underhung ,all the way to where the underhung arm reaches its null. You have to explain better what support this plot gives for an underhung arm, because every data set proves the underhung is worst on the distortion.
How do you draw the conclusion from this plot that the straight undehung arm is best?
IMG_2144.jpeg

PS, Korfs plot shows a near constant distortion,as is expected for a straight arm with zero overhang, Korf used some underhang,you can replicate his test using my alignment app
 
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Hi, Remember Korf Knows next to nothing about U/H arms, this was his 1st effort & he set the arm up incorrectly at a Nul point of 60mm. It has been firmly established it should be set bewteen 80 to 90mm from the center.
However like you guys he knows nothing about interpreting the results from U/H & like you guy's has has been indoctrinated to expect a raiding trace towards the inner LP grooves. This is completely wrong & Ort replicant & U/H trace shows what we should be aiming for.
In actual fact it is consistency playing across the LP in the most important factor in receiving S/Q. This is nearly impossible for the Off-Set arm to do with a cheap cart as shown by the Green trace of an 11'' arm.
But can be achieved with a very good styli like the Ort Replicant used in the test.
However the U/H arm virtually achieves an identical consistency across the LP using the same cheap elliptical cart. It does not have massive THD as others claimed it would earlier in this thread. The RANGE of the traces has the
Replicant 1st
U/H 11'' elliptical 2nd
Off Set 11'' elliptical 3rd.

Now both 11'' arms THD would reduce when fitted with a decent cart say a M/L stylus. Whether or not the Off Set arm typical end of LP upswing is resolved I do not know. But that end of side upswing is clearly not there with U/H, so it should to a large degree mimic or get very close to the result of the Ort replicant when a M/Line is used.

Cheers
 
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Not much new here. You still don’t answer the question, and evade the facts, you still do not realise the effect of signal level . You cannot interpret the data correctly You refuse what you actual see , consistently high highest distortion across the record in not good SQ, it is consistently bad. I tried to guide and help you but I have to end it here, no point in explaining it more than I have already done.
 
DJs use UH arms because the lack of offset severely reduces lateral forces, helping to keep the stylus locked in the groove. This applies to either backwards or forwards, so I wouldn't say it doesn't provide additional stability for simple playback. In fact, additional stability is the whole point of UH arms. The higher H2 is the tradeoff.
Helping the stylus stay in the groove is the reason I bought a Stanton STR8-80X turntable in 2003. This was primarily for listening to less than pristine 78's that had been handed down to me along with various lp's and 45's in rather rough condition. I was directed to this specific turntable by a couple of audio restoration services who found that its straight underhung arm helped keep the stylus in the groove even with badly worn, warped, eccentric discs. My experience was that the STR8-80 could track problematic records without skipping that neither my Dual 1218 nor my LP12/Ittok were able to deal with.
 
Helping the stylus stay in the groove is the reason I bought a Stanton STR8-80X turntable in 2003. This was primarily for listening to less than pristine 78's that had been handed down to me along with various lp's and 45's in rather rough condition. I was directed to this specific turntable by a couple of audio restoration services who found that its straight underhung arm helped keep the stylus in the groove even with badly worn, warped, eccentric discs. My experience was that the STR8-80 could track problematic records without skipping that neither my Dual 1218 nor my LP12/Ittok were able to deal with.
Makes sense. Can you imagine that happening to a turntablist? Dance floor is packed with sweaty, gyrating bodies, then the record skips. It's bad for business lol.
 
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