Help with Upgrade (cartridges under $300)

[VintageVibe]

Hi guys

I've been looking into buying a new cartridge, and the search has thrown me into a loop.

The context: I bought a Denon DP-47f turntable about a year ago. Great table. It came however with an AT95E cartridge. The cartridge sounds fine but it definitely seems to be a limitation. The low end is fine, but the midrange is really muddled and there's little soundstage.

So I went on looking for a different cart. I'm looking into spending up to $400 Canadian (a little over $300 US). The one that I looked the closest at was the Denon DL-110. It seemed like a perfect fit for my table, specially given I don't have a LOMC-compatible preamp. However, I'm really bad at analyzing sound, so I can't tell if I'd actually like the cart based on its description. Also, I think I might be allured by the MC of it all.

I run my table through a Denon PMA-600NE integrated amp (and its internal preamp) and KEF Q150s. Overall, I find the sound balanced but lifeless. It just isn't that fun to listen to. I used to have a much cheaper setup with a Nagaoka MP-110 (which I find too warm but grew to like) and I had more fun than I do with this one. I hated it with an Ortofon 2M Red however, so take it with a grain of salt.

What threw me for a loop was that, in a play to improve sound, I tried throwing in a Cambridge Audio Azur 551P phono preamp I had lying around. It made the sound warmer, wider and punchier, but it killed the balance and made the highs too harsh, so I went back to the internal preamp. It got me thinking however if I'm not looking at the wrong place at the moment for an upgrade. Maybe I should get a proper preamp? Maybe even the speaker is the problem (although it sounds fine with digital)?

In any case, any advice would help! Cart recommendations, upgrade ideas, anything.

Thanks!

I'm also using a AT95E rebadged as a Thorens TAS 267. It came with the new Thorens, ($59 cart on a 2K table, go figure), and the term describing it that I picked up online is "ballpoint". I would say smooth and clean, but not particularly detailed. It's polite, and to an untrained ear it probably sounds good. And definitely no soundstage. I just picked up a Denon DL-103D which will be replacing the 95E shortly.

I can appreciate what you're trying accomplish, but you're working with very limited resources. Engaging an inexpensive MM only pre amp only takes you sideways (or down in your case). A decent phono pre that will make a positive downstream impact and would allow you the flexibility of changing values is an absolute must IMO. Otherwise your stuck at the default values it comes with (i.e. fixed 100 Ohms MC, 47k MM and a fixed capacitance) which means another phone pre upgrade if you ever want to move to LOMC's, upgrade cables, etc. And that upgrade is going to limit your speakers capabilities. None of these upgrades are a bad thing, but be prepared to spend 'da money.

I'm with dr fuse and bebop. As a Denon DL fanboy, I would go with the DL-110. It's an HOMC and doesn't require a separate phono pre. I don't own one, but I also like the Denon " house sound. I did a Google search on the DP47f to see what the effective mass was on the tonearm. There's good information out there about cartridge match including this AK thread with another DP47f owner not impressed with the Nagaoka MP 110 and another DP47f owner happy with the Denon DL-110 on another. https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/denon-dp-47f-with-nagaoka-mp110.726518/

There's a well known seller, 2juki, on ebay who has one for $256 + $25 shipping. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DL-1...655030&hash=item5497511bf6:g:hCUAAOSwURNgRdvb

Good luck!

 

[lucascgc]

I'm also using a AT95E rebadged as a Thorens TAS 267. It came with the new Thorens, ($59 cart on a 2K table, go figure), and the term describing it that I picked up online is "ballpoint". I would say smooth and clean, but not particularly detailed. It's polite, and to an untrained ear it probably sounds good. And definitely no soundstage. I just picked up a Denon DL-103D which will be replacing the 95E shortly.

I can appreciate what you're trying accomplish, but you're working with very limited resources. Engaging an inexpensive MM only pre amp only takes you sideways (or down in your case). A decent phono pre that will make a positive downstream impact and would allow you the flexibility of changing values is an absolute must IMO. Otherwise your stuck at the default values it comes with (i.e. fixed 100 Ohms MC, 47k MM and a fixed capacitance) which means another phone pre upgrade if you ever want to move to LOMC's, upgrade cables, etc. And that upgrade is going to limit your speakers capabilities. None of these upgrades are a bad thing, but be prepared to spend 'da money.

I'm with dr fuse and bebop. As a Denon DL fanboy, I would go with the DL-110. It's an HOMC and doesn't require a separate phono pre. I don't own one, but I also like the Denon " house sound. I did a Google search on the DP47f to see what the effective mass was on the tonearm. There's good information out there about cartridge match including this AK thread with another DP47f owner not impressed with the Nagaoka MP 110 and another DP47f owner happy with the Denon DL-110 on another. https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/denon-dp-47f-with-nagaoka-mp110.726518/

There's a well known seller, 2juki, on ebay who has one for $256 + $25 shipping. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Denon-DL-1...655030&hash=item5497511bf6:g:hCUAAOSwURNgRdvb

Good luck!

Thanks for the insight here! I still have to look into many of the recommendations given, but from what I've seen and heard so far I'm leaning towards the DL-110 or the AT VM540ML (that microline stylus really seems to solve a bunch of my biggest irritations). But that can definitely still change.
I just wanted to ask: if I were to get a new preamp, what would you recommend? I thought about the Schiit Mani, but would that be foolish since it's kind of in the same category of what I have? Should I go higher, if I were to go at all?
The budget I gave is a self-limit I gave myself as I want to go through upgrades gradually and spread out hi-fi spending, but don't hesitate to go a little higher as long as it makes sense. If it'd be better to think about the preamp in conjunction, I can do one then the other, no issues there.

 

[VintageVibe]

Thanks for the insight here! I still have to look into many of the recommendations given, but from what I've seen and heard so far I'm leaning towards the DL-110 or the AT VM540ML (that microline stylus really seems to solve a bunch of my biggest irritations). But that can definitely still change.
I just wanted to ask: if I were to get a new preamp, what would you recommend? I thought about the Schiit Mani, but would that be foolish since it's kind of in the same category of what I have? Should I go higher, if I were to go at all?
The budget I gave is a self-limit I gave myself as I want to go through upgrades gradually and spread out hi-fi spending, but don't hesitate to go a little higher as long as it makes sense. If it'd be better to think about the preamp in conjunction, I can do one then the other, no issues there.

I can only offer an opinion based on personal experience, so after researching and comparing quality, features and price, I went with the Musical Surroundings Phonomena ii+. It's very well made and got some heft to it. It's distributed by MS. It's a mostly all discrete, dual mono pre. It's also one of the most flexible pre's out there in terns of settings. It just elevates my system to another level in terms of clarity and detail. I was using a Music Hall PA 1.2 which is pretty good for what it is but again, it offers no more than an MM or MC button. 100 or 47k. at a little more than a third of the price of the ii+.

HiFiHeaven has an open box for $599. I got mine from them as well as the Thorens. No issues. https://hifiheaven.net/shop/Musical...-Phono-Preamplifier-Open-Box?search=phonomena

 

[tabarddn51]

You have a Denon T/T, so why not go for a Denon DL-109R cartridge. You have to buy the cart S/H, but new Styli are available & the 109 is one of the top 5 best sounding MM cart's ever made. Couple on F/Bay at under $300 at the moment, biggest problem with them & for that matter the 107 is the output is low for a MM only 2mv, which is still OK into a MM phono amp as long as your P/Amp is queit.

Cheers

 

[Thunderbox]

2m red is the worst cart I have ever heard and I have around 80 carts.
Chris

Sounds like you haven't been overly happy with any cartridges considering how many you have purchased.

 

[cafe latte]

Sounds like you haven't been overly happy with any cartridges considering how many you have purchased.

Odd thing to say.. I like all of them, I collect carts and I retip so carts are my thing so to speak. All carts sound a bit different and I like them for differences, but HATED the 2m red it is nails on a blackboard bad.
Chris

 

[Thunderbox]

Odd thing to say.. I like all of them, I collect carts and I retip so carts are my thing so to speak. All carts sound a bit different and I like them for differences, but HATED the 2m red it is nails on a blackboard bad.
Chris

That is something substantial to hear from a person who is a retipper. I like that you recognize that cartridges sound different and not necessarily better. Are most of your cartridges your own retips.

 

[cafe latte]

That is something substantial to hear from a person who is a retipper. I like that you recognize that cartridges sound different and not necessarily better. Are most of your cartridges your own retips.

No, I have lots new, some retipped by me of course, all sorts everything from London super gold, Grado even expensive ones like Statement reference, vintage MC's some retipped some not, newer ones like Dynavector 17d3, Benz micro glider, really all sorts, MI MM and MC.
Sometimes I am in the mood for on the edge of your seat live like the Decca's (I have more than one) and sometimes I am in the mood for a Grado sweet. I am currently listening to a 681ee with original almost unused 0.2x0.7 elliptical nude, lovely for what it does. This morning I was listening to a Denon 301mk1 retipped my me just diamond retip not cantilever, it now has a micro ridge sounds fantastic. Hate the 2m red just a horrible cart. The AT3600l is 10x better and a fraction of the price.
Chris

 

[lucascgc]

Just for an update: I ended up getting the Denon DL-110 and so far I'm loving it. It sounds a lot better than the AT95e, expectedly. Far more musical, warmer, with a much wider soundstage, no harshness in the highs and far more detail. The bass is a little less defined but nothing too bad. And, specially, it tracks a lot better in the inner grooves, even with my shoddy alignment work.