Heresy - does this look right?

[Dave MacKay]

I bought a pair of 1983 Heresy speakers a couple of months ago. As far as I can tell, all of the drivers are in good shape. The capacitors all test within spec.

I used REW to measure how they perform (one line per speaker):



Does this graph look appropriate for Heresy's in good order?

I wasn't surprised to see that the low-end drops off below about 80Hz. However, I hadn't expected:

• the sharp drop-off in HF above 13 kHz
• the softness in mid-range that lasts to about 7 kHz

To extend the HF, I was thinking of replacing the K-77M tweeters with Dave's SMAHL. Should I be looking at other mods (other than converting them into Supers) to improve the mid-range and/or low-end?

 

[Sgt Shultz]

I bought a pair of 1983 Heresy speakers a couple of months ago. As far as I can tell, all of the drivers are in good shape. The capacitors all test within spec.

I used REW to measure how they perform (one line per speaker):

View attachment 2773532

Does this graph look appropriate for Heresy's in good order?

I wasn't surprised to see that the low-end drops off below about 80Hz. However, I hadn't expected:

• the sharp drop-off in HF above 13 kHz
• the softness in mid-range that lasts to about 7 kHz

To extend the HF, I was thinking of replacing the K-77M tweeters with Dave's SMAHL. Should I be looking at other mods (other than converting them into Supers) to improve the mid-range and/or low-end?

I see the graph, what do your ears tell you?

 

[ClaudeJ1]

Does this graph look appropriate for Heresy's in good order?

I wasn't surprised to see that the low-end drops off below about 80Hz. However, I hadn't expected:

• the sharp drop-off in HF above 13 kHz
• the softness in mid-range that lasts to about 7 kHz

Yes, the curve looks perfect for an old Heresy.

"Other than converting them into Supers." Really, you are asking this question??? What else is there to do but convert them. Imagine pulling the left part of your curve over to 50 Hz. from 70 (20 more Hz. is a lot of low end that everyone raved about). Plus you get even better Micro Detail in the Midrange with a more responsive Woofer.

Also imagine pulling the right curve past 20 Kz. adding an extra 7 Khz. at the top end to make a fully BALANCED loudspeaker with the "marginal" potential addition of a Subwoofer below 50-60 Hz. to lower distortion even further. PWK's design was made to have the lowest distortion possible without competing with the Cornwall for those who wanted that "Rich and Fat" Bass the Cornwall is known for (that gets down to 30 Hz. instead of only 50, like a Super, and only 70 for your measured specimen Heresy.

In other words, YOUR Curve is totally normal for a vanilla factory Heresy. In fact, if you had an older K-77, with an ALNiCo magnet, your Tweeter rolloff would begin at 8 Khz. intead of 13 Khz!!!

This is why after testing every frikkin tweeter on the market many moons ago, I chose DaveTN's Tractrix sMAHLs with the best, affordable driver I could find from all the driver makers that actually played past 20 Khz. which I experienced listening to a $50,000 pair of Horns at Axpona 2014. The Sadurni Staccato Horns won best of show and brought tears to my eyes listening to Nora Jones.

Just do it and you will finally understand why I did the Super Heresy Mod in the first place. Small speakers in small rooms can sound great too. Not as good as big horns in big rooms, but very Proportional nonetheless.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

I bought a pair of 1983 Heresy speakers a couple of months ago. As far as I can tell, all of the drivers are in good shape. The capacitors all test within spec.

I used REW to measure how they perform (one line per speaker):

View attachment 2773532

Does this graph look appropriate for Heresy's in good order?

I wasn't surprised to see that the low-end drops off below about 80Hz. However, I hadn't expected:

• the sharp drop-off in HF above 13 kHz
• the softness in mid-range that lasts to about 7 kHz

To extend the HF, I was thinking of replacing the K-77M tweeters with Dave's SMAHL. Should I be looking at other mods (other than converting them into Supers) to improve the mid-range and/or low-end?

One very cheap modification to tighten up the bass, spike the bottoms, this also protects the bottom from being scratched.



It has to be asked how you measured the speaker for the above graph. In room response will differ greatly from measuring close to the drivers eh.

Again, what are your ears telling you?

I've never felt the Heresy was lacking anything if positioned as designed, close to the front wall on the floor. But for better imaging they need to be pulled out into the room, this causes the bass to suffer, thankfully that's an easy peasy fix.

This setup with the subs connected in stereo retained the Heresy sound only BIGGER now with 25hz on tap.


These were modified for bi-amping with the modified stereo Dynaco amps on top, easy peasy with the Heresy Xover.





Moved the original binding posts inside to facilitate moving the woofer leads

 

[ClaudeJ1]

One very cheap modification to tighten up the bass, spike the bottoms, this also protects the bottom from being scratched moving them around.

to the OP: Cheap "mod" indeed. But remember that you ONLY get what you pay for, in direct proportion to time and expense. While not always the case for other products, it's totally true in the case of a Super Heresy Mod.
Following your "let your ears tell you," advice, you would find MUCH greater improvement if you did a pricier Super Mod AND adding a subwoofer, like Gigantic has done, you will have gotten the very best performance which rivals bigger, more expensive options. An added bonus vs. bigger boxes, is the WAF or GAF aspect, which can never be ignored if you have a woman in your life.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

.

 

[Schroedinger]

My Heresy 3’s have solid bass down into the 50’s and even they benefitted greatly from a sub. People always say “what difference does 20Hz make?” but trust me it’s an important 20 Hz. Mine also roll off hard on the treble around 13kHz, I haven’t done anything about it because I really can’t hear much above 12Hz. I probably will go ahead with Dave’s LMAHL’s at some point.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

"I have speakers that extend to 45khz, down to 22hz, +/- 2db, I know great SQ, the setup above needed nothing."...................Sgt. Shultz.

No need to get emotional and defensive. I get that you like your setup and don't mind posting pictures of it everywhere and anywhere you can on this forum. Basically same thing over and over.

I'm glad you are happy with what you have done to optimize a vanilla product that you like. Enjoy the music.

But posting words and pictures is just another opinion from someone who has never Heard or Actually done it. So the Objectivity of curves might be more helpful for those willing to not spend the money for further mods on Heresys, as you have.

Following your own advice about "what do your ears tell you" means you should go hear someone else's Super Heresy setup with full on Super Heresys, at the very least, or join the many who have actually built/modded them to the fullest BEFORE you comment about it. The only way to have full credibility is to have A/B's both of the via (even time limted) OWNERSHIP, then you would be qualified to comment about it with more credibility.
Basically is: follow your own advice.

 

[Sgt Shultz]

"I have speakers that extend to 45khz, down to 22hz, +/- 2db, I know great SQ, the setup above needed nothing."...................Sgt. Shultz.

No need to get emotional and defensive. I get that you like your setup and don't mind posting pictures of it everywhere and anywhere you can on this forum. Basically same thing over and over.

I'm glad you are happy with what you have done to optimize a vanilla product that you like. Enjoy the music.

But posting words and pictures is just another opinion. So curves might be more helpful for those willing to not spend the money for further mods.

Following your own advice about "what do your ears tell you" means you should go hear someone else's setup with full on Super Heresys, at the very least, or join the many who have actually built/modded them to the fullest BEFORE you comment about it. The only way to have full credibility is to have A/B's both of the via (even time limted) OWNERSHIP, then you would be qualified to comment about it with more credibility.
Basically is: follow your own advice.

I deleted my post when I realized you weren't posting to me, but as you now seem to take umbrage with my posting I will respond to you and then put you on ignore, I have no time for your ilk.

That setup was moved along many moons ago, the Heresy must be doing something right being in production for 65yrs virtually unchanged.

I have no issue with modifying the Heresy as seen in my earlier post, now bye bye.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

I deleted my post when I realized you weren't posting to me, but as you now seem to take umbrage with my posting I will respond to you and then put you on ignore, I have no time for your ilk.

That setup was moved along many moons ago, the Heresy must be doing something right being in production for 65yrs virtually unchanged.

I have no issue with modifying the Heresy as seen in my earlier post, now bye bye.

Either way, the TRUTH hurts some people more than others, obviously. Like on the show "Dragnet":...................."Just the facts, m'am" is what's required for someone making a investment in better sound. Yours could have been summarized as "just add a sub." The rest was just placement, and a split network, which never moves once the sweet spot is found.

 

[geoff.27]

Not to detract from this thread, any further, but…

Does anyone know why the ubiquitous 2.5mH coil across the woofer was replaced with a higher value coil in pretty much everything Klipsch made after the early ‘80s?

 

[ClaudeJ1]

2nd order filter vs. 1st order. Cap added to gnd with the 4 mH choke.

 

[geoff.27]

So the increased inductor value is required when going to a 2nd order woofer filter?

 

[Dave MacKay]

One very cheap modification to tighten up the bass, spike the bottoms, this also protects the bottom from being scratched.

It has to be asked how you measured the speaker for the above graph. In room response will differ greatly from measuring close to the drivers eh.

Again, what are your ears telling you?

Thanks for the suggestion about spiking the bottoms. I plan to build slanted risers for the Heresy's in the spring (when it's warm enough to work comfortably in my garage/workshop).

To avoid having the room dominate the measurements, I measured the speakers with a calibrated microphone 1m from the speaker, about 40 cm above the bottom (about the middle of the squawker). The speakers were sitting on the floor, pretty much in the middle of the room.

The Heresy's sound good to me, but, given their reputation, I had expected more. When listening for pleasure, I have the Heresys paired with an SVS SB1000 Pro subwoofer which fills the low-end in nicely. I haven't had my hearing tested recently, but it's likely I can't hear much above 13 kHz (where the Heresy drops off).

 

[Dave MacKay]

Yes, the curve looks perfect for an old Heresy.

"Other than converting them into Supers." Really, you are asking this question??? What else is there to do but convert them. Imagine pulling the left part of your curve over to 50 Hz. from 70 (20 more Hz. is a lot of low end that everyone raved about). Plus you get even better Micro Detail in the Midrange with a more responsive Woofer.

Also imagine pulling the right curve past 20 Kz. adding an extra 7 Khz. at the top end to make a fully BALANCED loudspeaker with the "marginal" potential addition of a Subwoofer below 50-60 Hz. to lower distortion even further. PWK's design was made to have the lowest distortion possible without competing with the Cornwall for those who wanted that "Rich and Fat" Bass the Cornwall is known for (that gets down to 30 Hz. instead of only 50, like a Super, and only 70 for your measured specimen Heresy.

In other words, YOUR Curve is totally normal for a vanilla factory Heresy. In fact, if you had an older K-77, with an ALNiCo magnet, your Tweeter rolloff would begin at 8 Khz. intead of 13 Khz!!!

This is why after testing every frikkin tweeter on the market many moons ago, I chose DaveTN's Tractrix sMAHLs with the best, affordable driver I could find from all the driver makers that actually played past 20 Khz. which I experienced listening to a $50,000 pair of Horns at Axpona 2014. The Sadurni Staccato Horns won best of show and brought tears to my eyes listening to Nora Jones.

Just do it and you will finally understand why I did the Super Heresy Mod in the first place. Small speakers in small rooms can sound great too. Not as good as big horns in big rooms, but very Proportional nonetheless.

Thanks @ClaudeJ1

Before making any changes, I wanted to be sure that my Heresy's were working as they should. I'm pleased to know that they are performing as should be expected.

Even in their "vanilla" form, the Heresy's sound good. I have paired them with an SVS SB1000 Pro subwoofer which fills in the missing low end nicely.

I've been keenly interested in the Super Heresy 2 mod for a while. In fact, I downloaded all 14 pages describing it from the Klipsch forum and have summarized that in a short document. I'd like to have the document checked for accuracy before posting it. I'm also aware that you've mentioned other mods, and would like to be sure that I've incorporated your latest and greatest.

BTW, I installed a pair of SMAHLs in my La Scalas and was immediately impressed with the difference that they made.

 

[Gigantic]

@Dave MacKay I’ll say this until I’m blue in the face: while my stock H700s sounded great with a subwoofer after restoring them, my Super H’s sound markedly better without and especially with a sub. I put spikes on the risers I made for them and I noticed a slight increase in base response and detail with them. I recommend both, but really, the super mod is a no brainer, it turns our relics into sublimely modern performing speakers.

 

[ClaudeJ1]

the Heresy must be doing something right being in production for 65yrs virtually unchanged.

c
Virtually Unchanged??? LOL. It's most changed loudspeaker in the line up. Now on version IV and FINALLY ported 9 years after my mod. Historical accuracy should affect the outcome of any mod to maintain integrity.

 

[mboxler]

I bought a pair of 1983 Heresy speakers a couple of months ago. As far as I can tell, all of the drivers are in good shape. The capacitors all test within spec.

I used REW to measure how they perform (one line per speaker):

View attachment 2773532

Does this graph look appropriate for Heresy's in good order?

I wasn't surprised to see that the low-end drops off below about 80Hz. However, I hadn't expected:

• the sharp drop-off in HF above 13 kHz
• the softness in mid-range that lasts to about 7 kHz

To extend the HF, I was thinking of replacing the K-77M tweeters with Dave's SMAHL. Should I be looking at other mods (other than converting them into Supers) to improve the mid-range and/or low-end?

I have a pair of 1982 Heresy's I'm looking to upgrade. One thing I noticed was the deep notch on the K-52-H around 1.6khz. Yesterday I swapped in a K-55-V solder lug, and noticed that the notch decreased. I also like how the dual phase plug driver extends out to 6.2khz before dropping. It also doesn't have the 10khz bounce like the K-52-H. I'm going to experiment on taking advantage of that by replacing the tweeter filter with the one used in the AK-3's.

Mike

 

[geoff.27]

Hello Mike, great to see you here too!