High-end cartridge on a mid-fi turntable. Why not?

[zssmith]

I have an old Technics SL-DD33 with a standard AT92E cartridge. I'm happy with it, but curious. When googling what cartridge to get for this turntable, I saw the sentiment that there's not much point in getting a better cartridge for this turntable than the standard. Why would that be? If there's no electronics between the cartridge and the pre-amp (or is there?), what would limit a better cartridge from sounding better?

 

[Crab33]

The 'quality' of the cartridge that can be used on a turntable is largely dependent on the quality of the arm, not the electronics. Your turntable takes p-mount cartridges (that just plug in). I dare say it would be worth pushing this turntable further but p-mount cartridges are not widely available new today, so your choices would be very restricted, unless you buy a used cartridge and replace the stylus.

I see a review in which someone is successfully using the Ortofon OM20 on this turntable, although they must mean the p-mount version, the OMP20. The OM20 is a great cartridge with nude elliptical stylus (your present stylus is a bonded elliptical), but the OMP20 may be difficult to find now, although the 'stylus 20' is still available.

Another route would be to keep your current AT cartridge and upgrade the stylus. You can probably find aftermarket styli with more exotic profiles such as hyper-elliptical and shibata for this cartridge.

 

[tnsilver]

The cartridge is actually an electro-mechanical device, basically an AC generator and both electronic and mechanical aspects count SQ wise. The generator type (MM,MC,Ceramic etc...) makes a huge difference and the attention to details, starting at the gauge and type of wires used in the coils, the type of magnet, it's size and force (and mass) and the electric characteristics (L,C,R) of the generator - all make a huge difference. It keeps boiling down to details such as the shape, the material, the crystal properties and the mass of the tip of the stylus, the arrangement of it's attachment to the cantilever and the material, size, structure and properties of the cantilever. The speed of sound travailing through the material of the cantilever, it's rigidity and strength under pressure - all count. There's a lot of fine grained electric and physical properties that matter a lot in the design of a good cartridge and stylus. These factors contribution to SQ vary from minute and academic to tremendous but the sum of it makes the difference between a regular entry level cart and a superb hi-end one.

What is the point of it all if it ends up on a turntable that can't keep accurate speed, generates low frequency rumble and is susceptible to external resonances that are amplified together with the audio signal? A low end turntable introduces so much disturbance into the playback that it literally cancels out the sum of all those small, fine grained, electro-mechanical marvels that were incorporated into the cart.

Simply put - a low end turntable can easily screw up the signal to noise ratio of the playback by introducing more noise to the signal. A better table will introduce less noise - so we get more signal and a better ratio, hence - better SQ. Since the cart's ability to generate signal is pretty much a constant - the final SQ basically boils down to the turntable being able to keep undesired noise down. If it can't do that - all the benefits of a high-end (and expensive) cart - won't matter as they could not manifest ideally over the noise.

 

[zssmith]

@crab33 Thanks, I'll look into the ortofon

What is the point of it all if it ends up on a turntable that can't keep accurate speed, generates low frequency rumble and is susceptible to external resonances that are amplified together with the audio signal? A low end turntable introduces so much disturbance into the playback that it literally cancels out the sum of all those small, fine grained, electro-mechanical marvels that were incorporated into the cart.

I'm afraid that in this lifetime, I may never achieve the level of electromechanical marvel in my gear. I think I'm wondering about a more modest upgrade.

This is where I start to question the line of reasoning. The accuracy of the speed of the table doesn't have much bearing on the qualities you've described, and honestly, I've never had an issue in that area from this machine. The low end disturbance is overblown as well. Of course, more isolation is better, but I really don't think feedback is as much of a variable here as it is so easy to think. I can tap the side of machine and hear it in the speakers (heaven forbid!), but I've never had an issue with rumble or feedback. Another example, on a very cheap turntable, you can hear a thud when the needle drops with an automatic mechanism. On my technics, I've never heard this happen. I'm fully open to having my mind blown in these areas however!

Now, if these nicer cartridges are more *susceptible* to feedback, thus requiring a better isolated machine, that's another story. Any frankly, a reason I might steer clear. I should hope the opposite is true, but as you say, it seems like a function of the arm and other components as well.

 

[Crab33]

If you're interested in the OMP20, you can buy any used OMP cartridge (e.g. OMP10) and a new stylus 20 for it.

 

[JPMelville]

My secondary table is a Technics SL-QD35, so probably pretty similar to the SL-DD33 that the original poster has. I wouldn't call it "low end". Now, I wouldn't call it high end either. But it's a decent table and, though I haven't tested them myself, I'd say it's probably better than or equal to most of the new, entry level tables. I think it could easily handle a step up in cartridges without the table undermining the sound quality.

 

[tnsilver]

I've never had an issue in that area from this machine

Oh... sorry I didn't make that clear. I wasn't talking about your turntable and had no intention of labeling it "low end" - I was just speaking about turntables in general and referring to an extreme case where some turntable creates various types of disturbances. It wasn't specifically about the Technics, just an example to build up an argument. I'm sorry if it sounded personal. I don't actually think yours is a low end TT. It does, however, like many - if not most TT's - has it's limitations.

BTW, speed fluctuations create a distortion type on it's own. That's what the wow & flutter specs are about.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I have an old Technics SL-DD33 with a standard AT92E cartridge. I'm happy with it, but curious. When googling what cartridge to get for this turntable, I saw the sentiment that there's not much point in getting a better cartridge for this turntable than the standard. Why would that be? If there's no electronics between the cartridge and the pre-amp (or is there?), what would limit a better cartridge from sounding better?

I used to think the same thing.

My Kenwood KD500 was their TOTL deck in its day, it has a very nice Grace G707 arm mounted. Currently installed on the arm is a Grace F-8L10' Advanced Luminal Trace 10th anniversary edition cartridge made for the arm. The synergy of having a cartridge on the arm it was designed for can not be denied, it sounds fantastic.

There was a time before getting the Grace I wondered what improvement a Van Den Hul Frog would give me and was told by a wise member here it would be a waste of a great cartridge. I didn't like hearing this and argued the point.

Well I've come to my senses, Mr Pig was correct.

I recently acquired my 35yr bucket list table, it had a Sumiko Black Pearl installed, even with this pedestrian cartridge it sounded spectacular. Having several cartridges in the drawer I decided to install another Grace on this table.

WOW, it was immediately obvious just how much more the Grace had to give even over it's mating with the Grace arm. So ya, it's not just a matter of having a table spin at the right speed, run quietly, etc etc.

There's a reason why arms, tables, and cartridges come at all different price points.

This is not intended to talk you out of stepping up to a better cartridge if available, but a "high end" cartridge? I don't think that would be a wise expenditure, better to improve the table first.

 

[eyewanders]

Technics entry and mid-tier tables are outstanding in their build and reliability - this is just generally accepted truth. That one is no exception. The definition of "high end" cartridge is important here. That varies person to person.
The LP Gear ATN3472VL (bonded line contact) or ATN3472ML (nude line contact) will transform that AT cartridge on that table for a modest price. I promise.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Technics entry and mid-tier tables are outstanding in their build and reliability - this is just generally accepted truth. That one is no exception. The definition of "high end" cartridge is important here. That varies person to person.
The LP Gear ATN3472VL (bonded line contact) or ATN3472ML (nude line contact) will transform that AT cartridge on that table for a modest price. I promise.

exactly, that's his best option

with cartridges starting at below $50, and as far as to my knowledge topping out at $16,000, I feel pretty confident in stating a $500 cartridge is not "high end" lol.

I'm not being a snob here, none of my cartridges were over $400, so ya, I wish I was being a snob with a drawer full of $5000 cartridges lol.

And that was my point, even with a cartridge most wouldn't consider "high end" my Kenny/Grace combo was still holding it back, that surprised me.

The Well Tempered Lab really makes the Grace shine, I bet that Frog would be a nice fit on this table eh Mr Pig?

 

[Final_Baton]

There's probably a distinction to be made between ''will it sound better'' and ''will I reap the full benefit of this cart''.

Yes it will sound better, but will that table exploit the full potential of that high-end cart?

I feel like that's the crux of the discussion here.


(semi-related but I've always wondered that about my combo of SL-D2 and Nagaoka MP-200. It sure wasa spectacular upgrade and sounded very good, but I always wondered if I was extracting everything the cart can, with this deck)

 

[MisterDK]

If you’re willing to keep spending money - you’ll find that the rabbit hole has no end. Put a better cartridge on and you’ll wonder if the tonearm, turntable, phono preamp, etc., is holding the sound back..

Unless you -do- have the money to spend, just get a decent $300 cartridge - and buy some records you like.

I’ve probably spent about $5k on my main system (buying mostly good-used) and it sounds about tolerable. If I had a spare $50k to spend on it though, I’d probably have it sounding closer to my liking.

 

[sqlsavior]

For a long time I had a Technics SL-DD20, with a Shure M92E P-Mount cartridge on it. It served as my turntable for all the thirty-some years that I was out of this hobby - out meaning not on an upgrade quest - I kept my records and played them. When I got back into the hobby, one of the first things I did was to put an Ortofon moving coil on it - the X1-MCP. It was an upgrade that I could hear plainly, and I was happy for awhile. But a Music Hall MMF5 with a Denon DL-160 HOMC cartridge really beat the Technics handily, and a Denon DP1200 with a Denon DL-103 LOMC (through an SUT) was another big jump up. I think the MMF5 was the equal of the DP-1200, just not suitable for low compliance cartridges.

That turntable of yours will become the limiting factor very soon, in any upgrade scenario. Much more so than a higher model Technics with an S-arm and a regular headshell, IMO. So, while I regularly advocate spending as much on the cart as the TT, in your case I would pursue a turntable upgrade, to a non-P-mount model, first.

Have fun!

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I have an old Technics SL-DD33 with a standard AT92E cartridge. I'm happy with it, but curious. When googling what cartridge to get for this turntable, I saw the sentiment that there's not much point in getting a better cartridge for this turntable than the standard. Why would that be? If there's no electronics between the cartridge and the pre-amp (or is there?), what would limit a better cartridge from sounding better?

Big issue you have. T4p mount gives you limited choices, especially those which have current genuine stylus availability.

 

[zssmith]

Some nicely measured responses, thanks! I think the Ortofon and the LP Gear styli are in a comfortable range for me. I really want to get out to a meet-up some time and hear something that's actually "high end."

For a while I've been in the camp of Techmoan's scale of "bad, okay, good" with "good" making up the entirety of anything anyone would even glance at on this site, but I would like to expand my horizons.

 

[the_nines]

I have an old Technics SL-DD33 with a standard AT92E cartridge. I'm happy with it, but curious. When googling what cartridge to get for this turntable, I saw the sentiment that there's not much point in getting a better cartridge for this turntable than the standard. Why would that be? If there's no electronics between the cartridge and the pre-amp (or is there?), what would limit a better cartridge from sounding better?

Since you're happy with it, I would stay the course and use the money on buying some records instead.

I also agree with what @tnsilver had to say about turntables having their limitations. There's no end, all depends on how deep ones' pockets are.

Enjoy you records.

 

[gusten]

There is a problem if we believe that some cartridges are too good for a TT. That will consequently mean that all cartridges are too good.

 

[tnsilver]

There's probably a distinction to be made between ''will it sound better'' and ''will I reap the full benefit of this cart''.

Yes it will sound better, but will that table exploit the full potential of that high-end cart?

I feel like that's the crux of the discussion here.

Bingo! Right on the money. Succinct, concise and says it all.

 

[Grenadeslio]

There is a problem if we believe that some cartridges are too good for a TT. That will consequently mean that all cartridges are too good.

Keeping on that line of thinking, there's also a point where the cartridge is holding the table back.

Sooooo, if the table is too good for one cartridge...........

 

[JPMelville]

Keeping on that line of thinking, there's also a point where the cartridge is holding the table back.

Sooooo, if the table is too good for one cartridge...........

I think this hits the nail in the head. The original poster isn't looking to use a $1,000 cart on his entry/mid-level turntable. He's looking to upgrade from an entry level cart to an entry/mid-level cart at around $100-$200. This seems eminently sensible and it sounds like he is looking to have the turntable and cartridge/stylus on par with each other.