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Homebrew cleaning fluid question

Jonesy09

Super Member
I know, I know, there's tons of info out there. However, I have a fairly specific question that I haven't been able to find an answer to yet. The fluid that came with my NG 1.0 is about done. I've bought materials to make the standard Distilled water/Iso/photoflo formula but I was thinking about adding a little Dawn to the mix. Formulas that I've seen either have photoflo or dawn, but they don't seem to have both. Is there a chemical reaction type reason for this? Should these two not be mixed together? Just to clarify I'm thinking of 3 parts distilled, 1 part iso, a few drops of photoflo and a few drops of dawn. Any reason not to do this?
 
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I know, I know, there's tons of info out there. However, I have a fairly specific question that I haven't been able to find an answer to yet. The fluid that came with my NG 1.0 is about done. I've bought materials to make the standard Distilled water/Iso/photoflo formula but I was thinking about adding a little Dawn to the mix. Formulas that I've seen either have photoflo or dawn, but they don't seem to have both. Is there a chemical reaction type reason for this? Should these two not be mixed together? Just to clarify I'm thinking of 3 parts distilled, 1 part iso, a few drops of photoflo and a few drops of dawn. Any reason not to do this?

Commercial detergents have scent and color added. Some say this is not a good thing in a record-cleaning fluid.
 
Why not make two different formulas one with Dawn and one with photoflo. Then do some testing and report back your findings.
 
I have a couple drops of Photoflo and a couple drops of unscented Dawn dish soap in my mix and it seams to come amazingly clean with a simple vacuum. And since the idea of a disitilled rinse never made any since to me since with out the sufficant like dawn or photoflo in the mix the surface tension of the water will not allow it to reach down into the grooves anyway. Least looking at water sit on the surface of the record with a 20x magnifing loop that is what I see evenif I try to scrub the water down into the groove.

So I use 80% Store bought steam distilled water and 20% Isopropal Alcohol with 2-3 drops of dawn and 2-3 drops of photoflo in a 5 quart mixture (5 quarts is the easist way to get the ratio's correct for me)

And after an aggressive srubbing for about a half min my machine vacuum the fuild off and out of the grooves to the point at 20X I can see no fuild anywhere I'm quite happy

Everyones Mileage may vary and I don't care I'm happy with my method.
 
If you use Dawn or other dishwashing detergent, photoflo is redundant. I believe that's why you seldom see them mentioned together.

The purpose of photo flow is to act as a wetting agent to "inhibit formation of water spots or streaks on film." Kind of like "sparkling clean, streak-free" dishes.

Thats what dishwashing detergent does and ... wait there's more ... breaks down surface tension to lift off dirt and greasy residue so squeaky clean you can eat off your records!

Different components do different jobs. Break down hard water, act as wetting agent or surfactants, etc.

If you are really concerned about unknown additives or dyes, and want to make your own on the cheap, on public tv they promoted a book and video that had cleaning tips and made some concoction with water softener. So you basically had scent-free dishwashing detergent.
 
If you use Dawn or other dishwashing detergent, photoflo is redundant. I believe that's why you seldom see them mentioned together.


Thats what dishwashing detergent does and ... wait there's more ... breaks down surface tension to lift off dirt and greasy residue so squeaky clean you can eat off your records!

Well that clears that up. I didn't realize Dawn acted as a wetting agent. I thought it was for cleansing only and photoflo was purely for breaking down the surface tension of the water. Thanks.
 
Whatever formula you use. Especially with hand cleaning. Rinse and flush well. Don't know about RCMs.
 
Well after doing about 50-60 records with just the NG I'm thinking of going to a two-step process: initial scrub with a distilled water rinse, then a regular RCM pass.
 
After reading many threads (mostly here) and considering my needs:
1. Cleaning records of mold, fingerprints, oils, GUNK..
2. Reducing Static
3. Bringing "bargain" LP's back to playlife

I settled upon the following formula (not mine, but a composite of several threads)

3 cups "soft" water (not de-ionized, I live on a well - I have a water softener)
1 cup ~90% Isopropyl acohol (from grocery store = ~$2/pint)
2 drops "Mr Clean" or "Spic & Span"
1 drop Dawn dishwashing detergent

Mix well (final volume ~1 quart)

Place record on clean soft towel - drop 1-2 tablespoons of mixture on record

use 3" paint brush (Harbor Freight ~$0.50) to spread fluid on record - use multiple clockwise strokes

Rinse with water

Repeat for other side

Rinse well (both sides) with warm (not hot) water

Dry with Microfiber towel (Harbor Freight $1.0)

Let air dry ~30 min

I do not take any precautions for the label - just don't rub it - just pat to remove excess water. All record labels so far (new and old) seem to be fine when dry (no discolor or warpage)

As all other have mentioned - I'm really impressed wha ta diffeence this makes. Takes records with lots of pops and clicks to nearly silent!

Hope sharing my expereince heps!
Best
Wayne
 
What Mark W. says is what I'm thinking about every time I rinse with distilled water and when I read I should be rinsing after applying the cleaning solution - if I use a vacuum, what's the point in rinsing with distilled water since the water without the wetting agent wouldn't penetrate down into the grooves and just forms drops over the record surface? So, I thought about scrubbing using a dish soap and rinsing with distilled water anyway, but put one or two drops of wetting agent (not dish soap)...
 
D.I.Y. Discwasher (from the web)

Gleaned from Internet sources. Use at you own risk...
Be careful with these chemicals -- they are poisonous.

I looked up the original Discwasher patent on their cleaning formulation.
The patent is U.S.# 3,951,841. This patent most likely applies to D3 which preceeded D4.
I don't know what changes might have been made when going from D3 to D4 but they were
likely minor and still fall within the scope of the original patent.

The cleaner basically contained an antifungal agent, a surfactant, one or two
solvents to keep the surfactant soluble in water and assist in cleaning, and distilled water.

The Patent discussion indicates the following possibilities:

1. The antifungal agent was sodium azide and probably ran between 0.0001% and 0.004% by weight.

2. The surfactant was either Triton X-114 or Triton N-57 and probably used somewhere between
0.0003% and 0.025%. These surfactants start to become insoluble in water when the temperature
reaches 70 - 75°F which is what makes them effective at cleaning oils/greases but can cause
formula stability problems (separation into two layers) without the assistance of a cosolvent
or other surfactant.

3. The two possible solvents are propylene glycol and isopropyl alcohol (IPA). Propylene glycol
is probably run between 0.001% and 0.2%. The patent suggests IPA is run anywhere from 0.01% up to 5%.

Since this cleaner can be thought of as being similar to a glass cleaner, the total solids level
usually does not exceed 0.1% by weight (glass cleaners are prone to leaving visible streaking
above this level). Thus, my best guess at the original D3 Discwasher solution is:

Sodium Azide = 0.004%
Surfactant (most likely Triton X-114) = 0.025%
Propylene Glycol = 0.01% to 0.075% (probably closer to the high end)
IPA = Won't hurt to run the full 5%
Distilled Water = quantity sufficient to add up to 100%

I personally was never impressed with D3 or D4; they didn't wet the surface very well
as evidenced by the formation of liquid beads when applying to either the album surface or
the Discwasher Brush. Poor wetting action usually results in poor cleaning.


*******************************************************************************************************
hear what you're saying. I don't have the "secret" formula for DW but I feel the one I'm using is
very good for use with a pad. I use a pad to clean records that have already been cleaned but picked up
some minor dust. (For deep cleaning I spray the same stuff liberally on the LP, wipe firmly with a
microfiber cloth, and then follow with a Signet carbon-fiber pad.) The mix is simple: 1 cup pure reagent
grade IPA, 3 cups deionized filtered water, 5-10 drops of Triton X-100. Read the data on Triton I just
posted tonight, above. Its worth the trouble to procure. That SPI place sells it by mail for like
$6 for half a liter- split that with many friends...(Thanks to Electrovice!)


*******************************************************************************************************
1. A phonograph record cleaning composition useful for loosening and coagulating particulate matter and inducing fungicidal activity upon the record surface without leaving any evident dry weight residue after usage, and consisting essentially of a fungicide of sodium azide in an amount of between about 0.0001 to 0.001 percent by weight, a nonionic surfactant selected from the group consisting of octyl phenoxy polyethoxy ethanol and nonyl phenoxy polyethoxy ethanol and included in an amount of between about 0.0003 to 0.025 percent by weight, and emulsifier selected from the group consisting of propylene glycol, ethylene glycol, and glycerine and included in an amount of between about 0.001 to 0.0125 percent by weight, an alcohol selected from the group consisting of methyl, ethyl, propyl and isopropyl alcohols and included in an amount of between about 0.01 to 5 percent, and the remaining part of the composition comprising a liquid carrier of water present in an amount of not less than 94 percent by weight, said alcohol being included to make the surfactant more soluable in said water.

2. The invention of claim 1 wherein the water is distilled water.

------------------------------------------------------------



A typical formulation for the fluid may comprise as follows:



INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

______________________________________

Anti-microbe up to 1

Emulsifier up to 1

Surfactant up to 1

Liquid Carrier at least 97

______________________________________



Another formulation for the fluid composition of this invention may be as follows:



INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

______________________________________

Azide up to 0.3

Surfactant between .005-.2

Propylene Glycol between .075 and .2

Alcohol between 0.01 and 5

Water remaining percent

______________________________________



Another more specific formulation, and the one which has found effective commercial usage may be defined as follows:



INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

______________________________________

Sodium Azide .004

Propylene Glycol .005

Surfactant .075

Distilled Water 99.916

100.00

______________________________________



Another formulation utilized:



INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

______________________________________

Sodium Azide up to .001

Emulsifier up to .0125

Surfactant up to .025

Alcohol up to 5.0

Water at least 94.9615

______________________________________



Another formulation presenting the range of the preferred ingredients is as follows:



INGREDIENT PERCENTAGE BY WEIGHT

______________________________________

Sodium Azide .0001 to .001

Surfactant .0003 to .025

Propylene Glycol .001 to .0125

Alcohol .01 to 5

Distilled Water at least 94

*********************************************************************************************************
Craig's Record Cleaner Formulation; Absolutely No Patents Pending. This forumlation is based on the Discwasher patent, assuming that all ingredients have the same density as Distilled Water which is a pretty reasonable assumption.

(For Cleaning Vinyl Records)

All of these ingredients can be purchased from a supermarket.

Note: Prestone Antifreeze consists of the following and is toxic to humans and pets:
- Ethylene Glycol (107-21-1)
- Diethylene Glycol (111-46-6)
------------------------------------------------
Ingredients:

1. One Gallon of Iron Water (consists of Distilled Water)

2. 70 % Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol (Part of our Emulsifier)

3. Automatic Diswasher Cleaning Liquid {Like "Cascade Complete" brand - - - be sure that you DO NOT use the type that includes chlorine bleach as an ingredient} (Part of our Surfacant)

4. Antibacterial Liquid Hand Soap such as "Softsoap" (Our Antimicrobe agent and another part of our Surfacant)

5. Small amount of Prestone anti-freeze or equivalent (This is the other part of our Emulsifier)

----------------------------------------------------------

Recipe:

1. Remove 1/2 of a cup of water from the Gallon of Distilled Water. Discard this water; all the following ingredients are added directly to the large bottle of distilled water.

2. Add 3 Teaspoons of Prestone Anti-Freeze to the Water.

3. Add 4 Teaspoons of 70% Isopropyl Rubbing Alcohol to the concoction.

4. Add 5 Teaspoons of Automatic Diswasher Liquid to the concoction.

5. Add 5 Teaspoons of Liquid Antibacterial Soap to the concoction.

6. Put the cap back on the Water bottle.

7. Stir thoroughly for 5 minutes.

8. Let it settle for one hour.

9. Stir Again.

10 Done
 
How about someone coming up with the formulas for Nitty Gritty machines and for that matter VPI cleaning products?

It seems with the rumored "demise" of Vinyl, you seldom see reports on cleaning machines and chemicals.
 
I actually prefer the Dawn+Isopropyl Alcohol+distilled water mix to the Nitty Gritty Pure2 that came with my machine. Have even started using it with the Discwasher brush too. Could kick myself for buying a couple gallons of Pure2, it just sits in the closet.
 
Gleaned from Internet sources. Use at you own risk...
Be careful with these chemicals -- they are poisonous.

That's also why I opt for dishwashing liquid or something less toxic which allows washing by hand.

I had thought about some of the archival fluids recommended by the Library of Congress that I have seen but thought better of it.

I have the Unhealthy Trinity: allergies, sloppy and clumsiness which is not a good mix. ;)
 
So I use 80% Store bought steam distilled water and 20% Isopropal Alcohol with 2-3 drops of dawn and 2-3 drops of photoflo in a 5 quart mixture (5 quarts is the easist way to get the ratio's correct for me)

Everyones Mileage may vary and I don't care I'm happy with my method.

Hi Mark,
I use an almost identical homebrew goop. To those wondering, Mark and I have developed our solutions independently. I also add a few drops of Windex. But then, I use Windex for everything. It's kind of like a good hot sauce which I use on everything except salad. This is New Mexico, you know. :thmbsp: I only use Photoflow and no detergent. The main difference may be that I use 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps you do too.

I have had my fingers rapped here for my sloppy, simple cleaning solution. But using it with my VPI 17 RCM I have had very good results with it for over 30 years. My basic attitude is if I can't hear it, it ain't there. Clean is clean. Nothing more is needed.

I know the snake oil salesmen hate my simple minded attitude. Tough!!

Sparky
 
The main difference may be that I use 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps you do too.

I have had my fingers rapped here for my sloppy, simple cleaning solution. But using it with my VPI 17 RCM I have had very good results with it for over 30 years. My basic attitude is if I can't hear it, it ain't there. Clean is clean. Nothing more is needed.

I know the snake oil salesmen hate my simple minded attitude. Tough!!

Sparky

I've found that one of the local (non-chain) pharmacy's carries 99% and have been using that almost exclusively.

Good time tested input. I tend to agree with your results-oriented philosophy. If it sounds good......:thmbsp:
 
And what about that final rinsing - is it worth it without the wetting agent? And also, there is another issue - I've been using warm water, but in a previous post it was stated that the wetting agent will not dissolve well above certain temperature...
 
The Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) recommends the use of nonionic, ethelyne oxide condensates surfactants to clean sound recordings. The CCI does not foresee long-term problems associated with the use of nonionic surfactants such as Tergitol. Tergitol 15-S-3 is an oil soluble surfactant and 15-S-9 is a water soluble surfactant. Combined they remove a wide range of dirt and greases and can safely be used on sound recordings. Use 0.25 part of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 0.25 parts of Tergitol 15-S-9 per 100 parts of distilled water. (These products are available in small quantities from TALAS (Division of Technical Library Service Inc) 213 West 35th Street, New York, N.Y. (212) 465-8722.) The recording must then be rinsed thoroughly with distilled water to eliminate any trace of detergent residue. Keep an airgun handy to blow off light surface dust.

Grooved discs

Grooved discs are best cleaned using a record cleaning machine such as the Keith Monks, VPI, Nitty Gritty using 0.25 part of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 0.25 parts of Tergitol 15-S-9 per 100 parts of distilled water. These machines allow for an even dispersion of fluid and can then vacuum the liquid leaving a clean, dry surface. The discs must then be rinsed thoroughly with distilled water and vacuumed dry to eliminate any trace of detergent residue. Records should be cleaned before each playback.

Clean Vulcanite discs showing signs of acid build up using 0.25 part of Tergitol 15-S-3 and 0.25 parts of Tergitol 15-S-9 per 100 parts of distilled water and rinse thoroughly.

Clean acetate discs showing signs of palmitic acid deposits (white greasy substance on acetate disc surface) as if cleaning LPs, except add 1 part ammonia per 100 to the Tergitol cleaning solution. Do not use ammonia on shellac based discs.

http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_specific.cfm?ClientID=15&ProductID=17376

If someone has a source for reasonably priced dionized water, please post
 
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