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How does Auto bias work with tube rolling?

tranquility

New Member
Hi all.

I recently built the blue glow/Kegger SE KT88 amplifier. It uses a cathode bias resistor with a bypass cap as the bias method.

My question is when you tube roll the amp, when you use kt88 tubes the cathode current is approx 76ma. If I were to use say a 6l6gc or el34 this amount of bias current would be to much and cook the tubes. Without adjusting the resistor on the cathode how does this work?

Many thanks.
 
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The current flow will change somewhat with the tube in place. It won't neccesarily be 76ma with everything, however without knowing more details of the circuit or what tubes its meant to be compatible with, I can't say more. If there are no notes or mentions of different resistors per tube type and no adjustment pot, I suppose all you could really do is try another tube, measure the current, and adjust the resistor as needed to make it work.
 
The answer to your question is: it really doesn't unless the tubes have identical characteristics.

The bias resistor value must be changed. No other path to success exists.

The bias setting is one of the key design characteristics of the circuit, and the infrastructure is set up to support a particular tube. When the amplifier was designed the value for the cathode bias resistor was computed. Changing the tube changes the tube's operating characteristics, and this requires, of necessity, specific changes to the supporting circuit. In the instant case, the cathode bias resistor's value must change to provide proper bias. That requires removing the existing resistor with the now unsuitable value and installing a resistor of suitable value.

As you noted, failing to change the bias resistor to a suitable, and lesser, value will damage, and eventually destroy, the new tube. Applying excessive bias to a tube during a tinkering experiment is not merely risky, but is guaranteed to fail and ruin the tube. What would be the point, anyway? The value is wrong and it must be changed. Staring at a tube with the wrong bias doesn't make it work, it just uses up it's lifespan on something pointless.

Instead, you should compute the new value for the bias resistor and get out the soldering iron. If you like, you could wire this up on a terminal strip so you could simply reconfigure the bias for a different tube.

You should also verify that other passive components such as the grid leak and plate load, are suitable, and that the output transformer's primary impedance matches the preferred load for the new tube. Not all tubes have the same output impedance requirements, and some have complex bias issues. (I was just assisting a member with an self-bias for an amplifier with a very high value grid-leak resistor. The ramifications of changes are not always readily seen.)

So, in conclusion, it's not just plug-and-play with different tubes and hope for success. The actual sequence is more like plug-and-redplate, wail-and-scream, and finally purchase-and-replace.
 
I have always been somewhat leery of amplifiers that claim to support a bunch of very different tube types without changing anything. It just seems not possible to be optimal for all tubes, and in some cases it may not be optimal for any tube.
 
I have always been somewhat leery of amplifiers that claim to support a bunch of very different tube types without changing anything. It just seems not possible to be optimal for all tubes, and in some cases it may not be optimal for any tube.
I guess you would have to buy an amp with true auto-bias to find out. I have 7 sets of quad power tubes to play with ranging from 7581's to KT-120's and they all work perfectly. No screws to turn. No flaming tubes to extinguish.
 
The bias resistor applies feedback. If more current flows, more voltage will be dropped across the bias resistor and the extra voltage reduces current flow - ie, it's negative feedback. To some extent this will allow different types of valve to be used in the same circuit and you'll get away with it, but it isn't optimal.
I equate "tube rolling" with random mucking about in the hope of a happy accident.
 
the only way to really have Auto Bias in an amp is to use a properly designed auto bias module, such as the ones made by Audioamp out of the Czech Republic, for whom we are the North American distributor.
In its basic form, the bias level is adjusted before installation into an amp, usually pre set by us or by the user, to the desired level, let's say 450mV per tube. Once the auto bias module is installed into the amp, it will 'sample' each tube and after a 'soft start', a delay of about 50s or so, each output tubes bias is set to the pre set level, in this case 450mV. Each tube, up to four, has its own indicator LED which remains on as long as bias is good.
The auto bias module will keep that level on each tube until such time that the condition of the tube will no longer allow this, at which time an indicator LED will go out for that corresponding tube to show that this tube needs to be replaced.
The beauty with this auto bias module is that when you do replace a tube, no bias adjustment is required. At start up, the auto bias module will go through its start up sequence, checking each tubes condition and then set the bias to the pre set level, in this case, 450mV
 
I guess you would have to buy an amp with true auto-bias to find out. I have 7 sets of quad power tubes to play with ranging from 7581's to KT-120's and they all work perfectly. No screws to turn. No flaming tubes to extinguish.

Its not just the bias points that are different. You get into different load conditions for a given voltage with different tube types, and different drive requirements as well. I just have to wonder how much compromise takes place under such conditions. Its perhaps a very vintage design philosophy, but I learned much of what I know from reading old books, and the old timers were not designing things with the notion of tube rolling in mind. They set a goal and selected components to meet that goal, and the amplifier was built with those parts to do that job.
 
I guess you would have to buy an amp with true auto-bias to find out. I have 7 sets of quad power tubes to play with ranging from 7581's to KT-120's and they all work perfectly. No screws to turn. No flaming tubes to extinguish.
I don't doubt that they all "work". Perfectly?? Perhaps some fairly reasonable compromise can be achieved, but "perfect" for all choices?

Have you ever measured the operating conditions with each tube type installed and compared them to the tube's data sheet?

I believe you would find that most of your choices could be operated under more optimal conditions which would require at least a some parts values to be changed.

Now if you had a switch that could select different values of cathode resistor / bypass cap that might get you closer but B+ levels and OT primary load might still be off. And drive requirements are likely different too.
 
I built the same amp as the OP mentions, or at least a version of it. With that 500 ohm cathode resistor I tried a number of different tubes just to see how it went. My only concern was red-plating and nothing went there. I tried KT66, KT88, 6550 and 6l6GC tubes and they all worked. I doubt they all worked equally but my only criteria was would they red-plate or sound horrible. Now once I found the tube I wanted to stick with I tweaked the bias resistor to get the best performance and get the output tubes running near 100% rated dissipation. After doing that I can no longer just swap the tubes because even in the same tube family there will be variation in the current they will draw due to manufacturing variation.
 
Hi all.

I recently built the blue glow/Kegger SE KT88 amplifier. It uses a cathode bias resistor with a bypass cap as the bias method.

My question is when you tube roll the amp, when you use kt88 tubes the cathode current is approx 76ma. If I were to use say a 6l6gc or el34 this amount of bias current would be to much and cook the tubes. Without adjusting the resistor on the cathode how does this work?

Many thanks.
Since you built this amp and really want to have it able to use different tubes you can make the amp with fixed bias. The addition of a negative voltage supply put on the input grid to control bias has several advantages. In a SE amp, you will gain about 3 to 5% more power that is lost in the heat dissipated by the cathode resistor previously used. In a SE amp of only 7 or 8 watts that is not insignificant. Also losing the sonic contribution of the bypass electrolytic cap is a major plus, which is readily apparent in a very revealing/sensitive system.
 
It will maybe kinda sorta work depending on how well the auto bias circuit is designed, but as mentioned, I'd want to at least test voltages and such after a swap while the tubes are idling. Even that won't tell you what the tubes would be seeing under load. This holds true for drivers as well as sometimes it doesn't take a lot of current change to affect how they respond and the quality of what you hear.

Oft wondered how complicated it would be to run your tests and set up different resistors for multiple tube types, but then you'd also have to test each individual setting to account for capacitance change with different routing or wire lengths. I suppose a gang switch with VRs installed to fine tune each path would be easiest, but not necessarily easy.

Short version - there's a LOT of possibilities within the KT88 family. Fun fact - IF your iron can handle the extra loads, a KT120 is a perfect swap with no other changes. Been running those for years here in my Latino ST120. I get around 10% more watts out, and the tubes should last forever with the kind of load they see on a KT88 amp.
 
I have always been somewhat leery of amplifiers that claim to support a bunch of very different tube types without changing anything. It just seems not possible to be optimal for all tubes, and in some cases it may not be optimal for any tube.

Exactly.

Audiophiles routinely issue claims of substitutions which cannot possibly work—the most common being swapping a high µ tube for high Gm, or vice-versa, typically in front-end stages or splitters—with confirmation bias about the resulting "wonderful sound", actually distortion. From such specious claims one might conclude that it probably doesn't matter if the new tube properly functions, or if it lasts longer than an ice cream cone dropped on a sidewalk in July. Too many audiophools have more money than good sense, or even a rudimentary ability to hear distortion, and this warps perspective.

Its not just the bias points that are different. You get into different load conditions for a given voltage with different tube types, and different drive requirements as well. I just have to wonder how much compromise takes place under such conditions. Its perhaps a very vintage design philosophy, but I learned much of what I know from reading old books, and the old timers were not designing things with the notion of tube rolling in mind. They set a goal and selected components to meet that goal, and the amplifier was built with those parts to do that job.

Damn straight.

Output tubes have different characteristics and no single magickal circuit is going to be able to divine same and drive in any optimal fashion.

The driver circuit would need to measure rP, gain, transconductance, perveance, contact electrons, internal electron scattering, inter-electrode capacitance, maximum screen voltage, maximum grid voltage, etc. and then magickally determine the cathode resistor, screen voltage, grid leak, plate resistor, and output transformer impedance, and then rejigger those. (I'm ignoring issues of grid current limits, because grid current generally causes distortion and is not a good way to design a low-distortion amplifier.)

Beyond the magickal circuit, a specific circuit topology would be controlling for whatever tube was substituted: auto-bias (cathode bias), self-bias (grid-contact bias), or fixed-bias. Not all tubes do equally well, particularly as the device ages. Then we have issues about load lines and the optimal impedance of the output transformer's primary winding.

None of this is addressed by the magickal device, and I note that it's circuitry is labeled Top Sekret, KEEP OUT!

I equate "tube rolling" with random mucking about in the hope of a happy accident.

But that implies the accident could be successful; this is more or less impossible when tubes of different types—such as 12AX7 for 12AU7 where either voltage or current gain is required and the tube selected has the wrong parameters—are swapped, nearly at random.

Tube rolling, particularly amongst tubes with significantly different characteristics, is a hobby which, like dowsing or sceances, is driven by the most tenuous of correlations and confirmation bias and is not rooted in science, engineering, testing, or even objective reality. It should be debunked for the witchcraft it is.

Here's something I previously wrote on this subject, slightly edited since then:

HiFi enthusiasts often want to have a personal relationship with their gear and some bragging rights. Having little design or analytical skills, they substitute tubes, replace capacitors, tinker with component values (generally to the detriment of the circuit) and claim that their golden ears detected a miraculous improvement that only they can hear, now claiming that while there are many amplifiers, this one is theirs. The phonier the words sound, and the more it sounds like an oenophile describing wine, the more likely it is that the claim is not grounded in reality.

I am reminded of Hume's commentary on the evidence required for extraordinary claims.
"The plain consequence is (and it is a general maxim worthy of our attention), That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish: And even in that case there is a mutual destruction of arguments, and the superior only gives us an assurance suitable to that degree of force, which remains, after deducting the inferior. When any one tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion."
Hume, David: An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, "Part 1", Chapter 10.13 (1748)​

In the next chapter Hume cautions, "A wise man, therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence."

(Yes, I actually slogged through Hume and Kant while pursuing a philosophy double major in addition to an engineering degree. The epistemology occasionally proves useful in debunking pathological science and fanciful physics.)

Another observation I have posted is from M. Le Comte Laplace:
"De ce qui précède, nous devons généralement conclure que plus un fait est extraordinaire, plus il a besoin d’être appuyé de fortes preuves. Car ceux qui l’attestent, pouvant ou tromper, ou avoir été trompés, ces deux causes sont d’autant plus probables, que la réalité du fait l’est moins en elle-même. C’est ce que l’on verra particulièrement, lorsque nous parlerons de la probabilité des témoignages."
M. Le Comte Laplace, Pierre-Simon: Essai Philosophique Sur Les Probabilités (Sixième Édition) (1840)​

In case your French is worse than mine, I roughly translate that (the Google translation is execrable, as it often is, and I am maintaining Le Place's archaic sentence structure, though it may be awkward to modern readers) as:
From the foregoing, we must generally conclude that the more extraordinary a fact is, the more it requires support by strong proofs. Because the attestor possibly is deceitful, or had been deceived, these two causes being all the more probable, since the reality of the fact will itself be lesser. This is what is particularly seen when one discusses the testimony's probability.
M. Le Comte Laplace, Pierre-Simon: Philosophical Essays on Probabilities (6th Edition) (1840)​

The biggest improvements in HiFi come from mundane changes which reduce noise and stabilize the circuit, preventing oscillation or ringing in the kHz or MHz band which saps power and causes distortion. (Most designers never look for it.) This includes proper lead dress to avoid hum and noise, using better components (metal film instead of noisy carbon composite resistors with other undesirable properties, and polypropylene capacitors instead of ceramics or electrolytics in the signal path), good soldering techniques, and adding some components to prevent oscillation and ringing. All very doable to anyone able to learn simple skills.

None of these changes are conceptually difficult to understand or expensive to implement. I would sum them up as mostly straightforward, well-understood, and mundane. Which is the best type of improvement to make. But the audiophile seeks a reduction of all issues to a single and simple—one might say "simplistic" without hyperbole—cure for sonic bliss that lies within the means of the non-engineer, non-designer, and unskilled hobbyist, and that is "tube rolling".

We live in a universe governed by the laws of physics which, while not necessarily applicable across the entire fabric of spacetime, nonetheless remain uncontroverted in our tiny corner of the universe, at least for HiFi.
 
Since you built this amp and really want to have it able to use different tubes you can make the amp with fixed bias.
^^^ What he said. Fixed bias meaning a negative voltage applied to the control grid via an adjustable negative bias supply, instead of (cathode bias) applying a positive voltage to the cathode via a large wattage power resistor.

Fixed bias will still require a manual adjustment when you roll tube types, but it allows it to be adjustable thus saving you from unsoldering and resoldering cathode resistors. Loading conditions won’t match if you change tube types—the design can only optimally support one tube type, but if you can overlook that it does give you an opportunity to tube roll.

I went down a mental exercise one time of optimizing the design of an amp for both EL34 and 6L6 tubes. It required two triple pole double throw toggle switches to change bias voltage, screen voltage and feedback network. I abandoned the idea after seeing that complexity on paper. These days I always design my stuff for one single tube type and live with it because I prefer optimized simplicity over convenience of configurability.
 
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Trying to squeeze the last 4W or 20% of dissipation out of the plates in a SE amp is just anal and unnecessary. That equates to @ 1-2W or 1dB of signal power. I just use the calculated K current as the Pdiss and let the screen current be my safety margin. On top of that, I still run the K under the plate rating just a bit. That amp is a toy for folks who want to play with scopes and generators and meters and tubes and not listen to music. You gotta know what you are doing with that amp. It a tubes 101 Lab amp. It's a gimmick forum amp built for attention with no directions or batteries included. Good luck with it.

I find your reply a bit harsh. Aren't you happy that this gimmick has brought a lot of amateurs some enjoyment and provided an achievable project to get started with? A noob like me needs a project like this to build confidence and skill. And by the way, it sounds great.
 
I have installed a fixed bias circuit in mine and highly recommend it to others. It sounds better dialed in this way. I don't know why, other than I now have the ability to make fine adjustment of the bias with ease.
 
I have installed a fixed bias circuit in mine and highly recommend it to others. It sounds better dialed in this way. I don't know why, other than I now have the ability to make fine adjustment of the bias with ease.

Changing to fixed bias has ramifications which include changes to the driver stage, grid leak value, adjustments per tube to initially set the bias, and continual adjustments as the tubes age.

The whole point of cathode bias, or a hybrid scheme like Dave's Enhanced Fixed Bias, particularly with individual control potentiometers, is to simply the continually moving-target nature of biasing requirements.
 
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