How Good Are 1st/2nd Gen SS Fisher Products??

[Vinylcafe]

The earlier thread here begs the question ...
Before Emerson and Sanyo, while Avery still had control and transistors at his disposal?
The TX-300, 500-T, etc.

They sure are pretty; do they sound any good?
I notice that the Fisher literature of the time for the TX 300, was all about the tuner section and not really touting anything about the amplificaton.

Just wondering if one were a vintage SS person, if these are highly desirable...

 

[slow_jazz]

I think the SS was Studio Standard. Not sure about the particular models your talking about. Look for made in Japan...

 

[Brian]

TX-300 was an amp that went with the TFM-300 hybrid tuner and the ppair made up the 600 hybrid reveiver. I had the 300 pair as well as the 600 and though they needed recapping, the pwer transformer was running hot on all 3, no hum and they sounded quite good. Decent detail and typical Fisher darker, more authoritative sound. Super build but a challenge to work on due to the construction. I sold the receiver but, still have the tuner and amp pair.

These 1st gen SS units were totl and featured die cast front and back plates. No cheap stampings on these. Internal build quality was easily equal to the likes of McIntosh and IMHO better then say the last tube units. Weakness was also their strength. After WWII Avery brought over German engineers and his products from then on showed the layout and quality of what Germany was known for for decades. Sadly, he also sourced components from the then emerging Germany manufactures, especially the caps and these have not stood the test of time and many of these units from that period need serious recapping.

The next generation tuners/receiver did away with the tube front end used in the TFM300 and 600 which was lifted from the 500-C and a great front end. Increased the sensitivity by magnitudes but lost a bit of that tube magic but, then all transister front ends lost it. During this period the company produced the TFM-1000, imho one of the finest ss tuners out there. Again a design of the German lead engineering team showed the German level quality that was sustained almost the entire time that Fisher was owned by Avery.

Fisher from this period is generally overshadowed from its earlier tube period similarly to Sherwood but should not be as it made some really nice innovative and good sounding equipment.

 

[audiodon]

The (The Fisher) solid state stuff is quite good.
I've heard some of the Emerson Fisher stuff like the Fisher 200 (dropped (the) from the name Fisher) and it's also good, though I've never done an A (Fisher made) to B (Emerson/Fisher made) comparison.
Some of the Sanyo Fisher stuff is quite good but more of it is not.

 

[TheRed1]

Which models would be considered the first and which the second generations?

First there were the hybrid (tube+transistor) amps which debuted in the upper-echelon consoles for the 1964 model year, the TA-900 & 690-A; then the hybrid console amps of 1965, the 49-A, 59-A & 97-A and the all-in-one hybrid console receiver from 1966, the 69-T. You also have the hybrid separates from 1965 that Brian mentioned above: the 600-T receiver, the TFM-300 tuner and the TX-300 amp. (I never knew that the 600-T consisted of the TFM-300 and the TX-300 but it makes sense: 300+300=600.) There was also an early 'economy' line of hybrid separates from approximately the same time: the 440-T receiver, the TFM-200 tuner and the TX-200 integrated amp which probably debuted in late 1965 for the '66 model year.

Would that mostly hybrid group (I'm not sure if the TX-200 & TX-300 were hybrid, or not.) from 1964-1966 be considered the 1st Generation of solid state Fishers?

If so, would you consider the 2nd Generation to consist of the following (which were nearly 100% solid state):

1967:

Console Receivers: 31-R, 22-R & 11-R.

Separate Receivers: 700-T, 500-T, 220-T.

1968:

Console Receiver: 24-R.

Separate Receivers: 550-T, 200-T.

1969:

Console Receivers: 23-R, 20-R.

Separate Receivers: 500-TX (aka - 800-T), 400-T, 250-T, 175-T, 160-T.

Tuners: TFM-1000, R-200-B (hybrid).

Integrated Amps: TX-100, TX-1000.

And perhaps the TX-50 and the TX-2000, though I am not sure of their exact dates of origin. Am I missing any solid-state tuners, integrated amps or power amps from 1967 or 1968? It seems like I must be - anyone?

It's difficult to draw a definitive line between one model year and the next with Fisher since new models were introduced throughout the year and many of the models continued on for several years. Also note that many of the console receivers have nearly identical counterparts among the separates. I've been compiling an equivalency chart but it is incomplete and currently buried somewhere among my Fisher files.

1967 would seem to be a good dividing line between the 1st and 2nd generations since that seems to have been the year Fisher committed to solid state. The real trick is defining the cut-off between the very good to excellent solid state gear that was produced while Avery Fisher was still at the helm and that which came after. I don't think we're talking about a specific date after which one really ought not bother. Perhaps a good strategy for the collector would be to consider any Fisher branded gear made after 1969 as guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Brian]

The TX300 and TX200 are both all SS along with the slightly later TX1000. Yeah, Fisher did not seem to have a set model intro period such as at the CES when other companies generally introduced their new lineup to get committments and orders from dealers.

From this era, the TFM-1000 and TX1000 would be the pair I'd be after but finding a set is rare as they were not produced in high numbers and were not inexpensive. I had a TFM1000 and it is only 1 of a few units I've regretted selling even it it was a bit of a maintenance nightmare because of the plugin transistors.

The company had gained the reputation as the go to company for high end receivers since in the tube days Mc and Marantz had no tube receivers during the pre-ss period. As SS became dominate Fisher seemed to find it harder to stay in the separates and integrated amp market. In fact several companies including Scott and Sherwood were in the same marketing dilema. Fisher seemed to realize this and really concentrated on their recievers as did Sherwood.

A nice 500-T or 500-TX still are engineering marvels with their front ends and show Fisher had the ability to engineer through problems other were having. Also, sound very good, enough for years to be a main system component. Only negative were the faux wood on the faceplated in my opinion; just looked hokey, though at the time it was intended to have them blend into the shelving.

 

[larryderouin]

On certain models (MADE IN NEW YORK) I'd go as high as 1971 model year for the end of the 2nd Gen. The 500-TX/800-T was made from 69 to 71. My personal 500-TX was made in 69 as was my 175-T/23-R.

I have a 550-T that the original owner stated he bought in late 67/early 68. Build quality is as above as noted by Brian. Parts quality is also very good. I wouldn't go too hard on the caps from Europe, as the Japanese caps in the same era need a wholesale replacement also. But the European caps were generally better than the Japanese equivalents that I've seen. the layout on both the 550-T and 500-TX is quite good and easy to follow. I've also a 175-T that is a smaller version of the 550-T in layout and has quite a few common parts. The Tuner on this particular unit is shot however, so it's used strictly as a parts unit unfortunately.

Overhauled to original spec, these receivers can and do hold their own against comparable wattage receivers of other makes. I listen to these Fishers more than any of my PIONEERS (SX-1010, SX-434, SX-780, QX-9900) SS Units. They sound closer to my tube units than the later PIONEERS which sound a lot brighter.

Larry

 

[buglegirl]

Hiya,

So I am guessing that the Sanyo Era would be 3rd Gen into 4th And 5th

3rd Gen is right around my RS-2010 which I would put up against anything SS of its era (Early 70's). Its my regular listener ATM and its no slouch. These are under appreciated monsters. The RS-20XX line that is.

4th Gen is the BPC/SPC era of the late 70's/80's/Early 90's which I consider to be 100% Crap

5th Gen is the "all in one" crap I think you can still buy. It is low end wally mart garbage.

I sometimes wished the Fisher brand name would have died somewhere around the late 60's actually. The later stuff which is hit and miss is mostly misses.

Frannie

 

[Sam Cogley]

Even the little 100 "microceiver" table radio is pretty impressive. I use a battered example as my garage radio.

 

[larryderouin]

Might be easier to break it down as to who had the Co at the time IF we had a hard date to make the change. So I suggest this.

Up to 1969/70(?)...... GEN 1........ Avery FISHER

End of 1969/70(?) to 1974(?)........GEN 2............ EMERSON ELECTRIC

1974(?) to Present............GEN 3.........a Division of SANYO Co.

Contrary to popular belief, the term "STUDIO STANDARD" is NOT a moniker started by Sanyo for Fisher. FISHER used "STUDIO STANDARD" as early as 1962 on the X-1000 Amplifier.

I had a RS-2003. Aesthetically it struck me as cheap with the EQ sliders, and the bland front end. But I'm also not a fan of All Silver Face fronts. Inside was a bit different. Very well made with the transformer in the center, and the board layout was logical to follow. The STK modules turned me off also, although it sounded pretty decent. Not quite as good as a SX-780, but about 70% of it. Definately a Sanyo feel to it.

Larry

 

[buglegirl]

Larry,

My point is that for a while (Early 70's into late 70's) Sanyo actually made some dang nice high end stuff (The Plus Series) along side the total Kmart type crap they were selling. It had to be a different division of the company and "Maybe" it was using Fisher Corp expertise.

After the period of early 70's to early 80's the cost cutting was in full force and that is my reasoning behind the Gen 4 which is total BPC/SPC crap.

Trust me my RS-2010 is NOT BPC and you would know if it it fell on your foot steel toes or not

I still think there is also a post BPC period where we get what is cheap boom boxes on steroids which is what the Fisher Brand is if anything in the new millennium.

Frannie

 

[larryderouin]

I agree SANYO made some good stuff. But they were never what you would call an audio co. They made damn near everything for Japanese households (like Toshiba, Hitachi, etc) I think Sanyo got a bad rap at one time for one reason or another. They were looking for a foothold in the American Market and FISHER provided it (to an extent) and they exploited it just enough to be mediocre. They fell into the recession just like everyone else in 79-80.

I wasn't dissing the 2010, I was saying that the styling of the 2003 stunk IMO. Internally it was well laid out, and had decent to good parts. The only thing internally that turned me off was the STK's.

Larry

 

[buglegirl]

Larry,

Sanyo as far as audio has a very well deserved "Bad Rep". Again I am making the point and drawing nebulous lines with Crayon saying that if anything the well regarded Plus series was due to some Fisher Corp engineering and not really anything Sanyo did. Could have been one of those things to placate the masses (Fisher Faithful) until assimilation.

Getting off topic and I am sorry. I like the Emerson SS stuff myself and also like the end game Avery Fisher controlled SS stuff except the dodgy Germanium outputs.

At least you can still find those STK's. Try finding those Germanium outputs used in the early SS gear.

Frannie

 

[TheRed1]

Might be easier to break it down as to who had the Co at the time IF we had a hard date to make the change. So I suggest this.

Up to 1969/70(?)...... GEN 1........ Avery FISHER

End of 1969/70(?) to 1974(?)........GEN 2............ EMERSON ELECTRIC

1974(?) to Present............GEN 3.........a Division of SANYO Co.

Thinking about the multi-layered corporate square dance that began once Avery Fisher sold the company in 1969 always gives me a headache. To the best of my knowledge, Emerson Electric Co. was a division of National Union Electric Corp. (which also owned Admiral - one of the pioneers in shifting electronics production off-shore) when it bought out Fisher Radio Corp. Sanyo Electric, Inc. began its relationship with Emerson about when you suggest but they didn't acquire a controlling interest until 1976 at which time they created a Delaware corporation called the Fisher Corporation - such that Emerson Electric Co. was actually bought out by the Fisher Corporation (which was controlled by Sanyo). In 1987, the Fisher Corporation was merged into Sanyo Electric, Inc. which then changed its name to Sanyo-Fisher (USA) Corp. and subsequently, in 1996, it became Sanyo North America Corp. which, in turn, was recently bought out by Panasonic.

During this time production shifted all over the globe depending on what model and what year and which boardroom was calling the shots. It might be worth noting that Sanyo wasn't always they bad guy. They used the Fisher plant in Milroy, Pa. for speaker production and even built a new Fisher electronics plant in San Diego in 1979. Fortunately it appears that most of the records which would have allowed me to trace the details of Fisher's scramble for lower production costs were lost in the Northridge earthquake. Oh, darn.

Contrary to popular belief, the term "STUDIO STANDARD" is NOT a moniker started by Sanyo for Fisher. FISHER used "STUDIO STANDARD" as early as 1962 on the X-1000 Amplifier.

That's very interesting. When Emerson filed to trademark 'STUDIO-STANDARD' in 1972 they listed its first use as June 3, 1972. Perhaps their lawyers couldn't be bothered to dig through all of the old files - which apparently wasn't necessary anyway since the trademark was registered without opposition on Oct. 15, 1974.

 

[larryderouin]

I just popped 4 Motrin reading that tangled web. Get the feeling that the US managers felt like a ping pong ball???

 

[buglegirl]

Carter,

Fortunately it appears that most of the records which would have allowed me to trace the details of Fisher's scramble for lower production costs were lost in the Northridge earthquake. Oh, darn.

Interesting.

I actually experienced the Northridge earthquake first hand. I was working with a Military Program and one of the things we were doing was scanning and linking together a huge amount of Mil Weather Satellite paper. We had a couple racks that had volumes of said paper fall over but it was not that hard to put them back up and we lost no records as a result.

Hard for me to imagine how that Earthquake could have cost a catastrophic loss of the documents you reference. Unless they were in the parking garage of that Apartment that pancaked ??? <joking>

I know of no large fires or other massive building collapses is what I am saying.

Maybe the filing cabs fell over and Sanyo said shred em rather than put them carefully back ???

Frannie

 

[larryderouin]

It's also possible there was a sprinkler system that got lit off and the records were soaked. Front end loader time.

 

[buglegirl]

Hiya,

"Chatsworth Business Park"

Home of Sanyo Fisher at the time of the quake. ???

Maybe 10 miles from the epicenter.

Guess so Larry.

But all our docs (Mil Sat Program) were stored in Lektrievers. They did fall over in two locations at LAAFB.

But nothing was exposed.

Guess Sanyo had these docs just sitting on shelves or something.

Frannie

 

[TheRed1]

I came by the 'Northridge' info secondhand but it's from a VERY good source. I hope to have more details in a couple of months.

 

[buglegirl]

Carter,

I am not doubting you. Hardly the case. I think it makes sense except the "Excuse" given by whomever was in charge at Sanyo at the time.

Seems a travesty that these important records were stored in a way to be "destroyed" by what geologically is a small earthquake is what I am getting at.

Makes a lot of sense when you pick up one of these "New" Fisher branded items.

EDIT: I am sorry I am the one at fault screwing this thread into the ground. I do find history fascinating.

Frannie