The preamplifier is EXTREMELY important. This is what gave so-called "passive preamps" popularity for a while. Whether you prefer tube or solid state flavors, that's all up to you; but get the best one you can. A preamplifier is a device which handles VERY low voltage signals which means design and execution of the product are very, very important.
How important is the preamplifier?
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Thanks Drum
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Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
Maybe I should sell the Lowthers and replace them with Infinity or trade the SET amps for a Yamaha.
Of course it is!
One just has to smile when others say that it is "trivial" to make a *transparent* one or that "if it affects the sound", then it is *defective*.
kahlfin1k
Well-Known Member
From a measurement only perspective the preamp (minus phono stage) is the easiest component to get "right". It's quite easy, even with cheap components to achieve vanishingly low distortion and a frequency response many times greater than the human hearing range. Noise is also less of a concern as most preamps only require unity gain with most modern sources. Obviously if you throw in a phono stage all bets are off.
This doesn't mean they all sound the same but from an engineering standpoint a switching box with volume control and a buffer is not that complex compared to an amplifier, speakers, CDP, DAC, etc.
This doesn't mean they all sound the same but from an engineering standpoint a switching box with volume control and a buffer is not that complex compared to an amplifier, speakers, CDP, DAC, etc.
That's fine if your objective isn't listening to music. Measurements simply don't tell us everything.
Producing an audibly transparent line stage is anything but easy.
Tom Bombadil
AK Member
I have listened to preamps which have imparted negative characteristics to the final sound quality.
However I find the differences between most quality preamps to be relatively minor. Far, far less important than room acoustics and speakers. However they can add that little extra touch, which makes a discernible difference.
I've run some preamp comparisons. Where I run the output from a high-end CD player into two preamps, then the preamps into a good quality switchbox and into the amp. Taking time to level match the volume to within 0.1dB.
When switching between them, I've been amazed at how similar they have sounded. To the point of where most people can't tell them apart. Using preamps from Rotel, Parasound, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, a couple of passive "preamps," Classe, and Ayre.
I had a switchbox which had silent switches, no clicks. No break in the music. I liked to run a little test where I didn't ask people to ID them, but simply to tell me when I switched between preamps. Just sit there and listen to the music and let me know when you think I've thrown the switch. Almost no one could do it. They would sit there and listen and then, after several minutes, say something to the effect that it all sounded the same to them and they didn't pick up on any switches.
Or I would ask them to raise a finger when they wanted to switch. Then sometimes I would switch and sometimes not. Again, they couldn't tell.
This wasn't an attempt by me to prove anything one way or the other, except to learn for myself how important the preamp was. To see if I should heavily invest in one. But I failed the test several times. In the end, I kept 4 preamps. A solid state, a passive, a 12AU7-based tube, and a 6DJ8-based tube. Because I felt like each of these did impart a sonic signature, albeit a subtle one. The solid state, 6DJ8, and passive sounded the most similar, with the 12AU7 being more distinguishable. My overall favorite turned out to be the passive. Vs all of the rest. It sounded more transparent, detailed, with better dynamics, but just by a hair. Perhaps in my mind. When I am in the mood for louder music, rock, symphonic, wanting the most live, dynamic sound, I go with the passive.
Edit: Should add that all listening was performed on line stage, not phono.
However I find the differences between most quality preamps to be relatively minor. Far, far less important than room acoustics and speakers. However they can add that little extra touch, which makes a discernible difference.
I've run some preamp comparisons. Where I run the output from a high-end CD player into two preamps, then the preamps into a good quality switchbox and into the amp. Taking time to level match the volume to within 0.1dB.
When switching between them, I've been amazed at how similar they have sounded. To the point of where most people can't tell them apart. Using preamps from Rotel, Parasound, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, a couple of passive "preamps," Classe, and Ayre.
I had a switchbox which had silent switches, no clicks. No break in the music. I liked to run a little test where I didn't ask people to ID them, but simply to tell me when I switched between preamps. Just sit there and listen to the music and let me know when you think I've thrown the switch. Almost no one could do it. They would sit there and listen and then, after several minutes, say something to the effect that it all sounded the same to them and they didn't pick up on any switches.
Or I would ask them to raise a finger when they wanted to switch. Then sometimes I would switch and sometimes not. Again, they couldn't tell.
This wasn't an attempt by me to prove anything one way or the other, except to learn for myself how important the preamp was. To see if I should heavily invest in one. But I failed the test several times. In the end, I kept 4 preamps. A solid state, a passive, a 12AU7-based tube, and a 6DJ8-based tube. Because I felt like each of these did impart a sonic signature, albeit a subtle one. The solid state, 6DJ8, and passive sounded the most similar, with the 12AU7 being more distinguishable. My overall favorite turned out to be the passive. Vs all of the rest. It sounded more transparent, detailed, with better dynamics, but just by a hair. Perhaps in my mind. When I am in the mood for louder music, rock, symphonic, wanting the most live, dynamic sound, I go with the passive.
Edit: Should add that all listening was performed on line stage, not phono.
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I have to say, some of these responses have made me smile as well E-stat! I was (in the 1980's) an audio dealer and Superphon was one of the brands we handled. The Superphon Revelation Basic Dual Mono turned the High End Audio world on it's ear (no pun intended) because it was the first preamp under $1K that actually exhibited audiophile traits such as transparency, dynamics, low coloration, decent imaging in decent sized portions. It was still a looonnnnggg ways from the top dogs but it was miles ahead of the Yamahas, Onkyos, Denons, Haflers, Carvers and many others of the day. What was funny is that the specs; they weren't that great. I remember looking through catalogs and If I saw an amp or preamp with super-low THD I would actually AVOID it because I knew it had tons of feedback, hence it really wasn't going to sound very good.
The Superphon is long gone and since has been blown away, but making a preamp that sounds good, natural, realistic, however you want to put it is NOT an easy task and through the years has challenged many designers.
The Superphon is long gone and since has been blown away, but making a preamp that sounds good, natural, realistic, however you want to put it is NOT an easy task and through the years has challenged many designers.
When I was 17, I almost purchased the ICK from a dealer that sold both Crown and H-K. Being young and stupid at the time, I trusted Julian Hirsch and the numbers. I really, really wanted the D-150 amp to drive my double Advents because it had more power than a Citation 12 and it had, yes! - rack handles. The dealer (later friend and employer) did convince me to purchase the Citation 11 instead. That was a pretty decent SS unit as of 1974. He lent me his Audio Research SP-3a for a listen one weekend and I then became aware of how good a preamp could be at that time.
The funniest story I heard was from a dealer. Here is his take:
They would be fired...
I think it was the test that failed you. That elaborate setup surely mixed the characteristics of the multiple cables and input impedance of the various components. What was your control? Did you perform any measurements of the gear separately vs connected together? I've done that before and measured significant differences.
I seriously doubt you were truly comparing one preamp's sound by itself vs another.
I've made a similar observation before based upon the related characteristic of damping factor - here!
kahlfin1k
Well-Known Member
Notice I did say they sound different and I agree with you that measurements aren't everything. My post was more directed towards the OP's original question and since there's already pages of peoples subjective opinions I thought I'd share a different perspective.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
Great story.:yes: That preamp/power amp with those speakers, I'm getting a headache just thinking about that combination. IMO the best thing about the DC-300 is the case. It's a 4U Walnut veneer case. It's perfect for rack mount devices.
Thanks for the clarification. One significant gaping hole in the ability for measurements to indicate differences has to do with the many aspects of imaging and soundstaging. Though John Atkinson has been measuring a wide range of gear for decades, he admits they fall down in this case.
"All of the first-order sonic attributes—frequency balance, linearity, lack of coloration, etc.—are beyond reproach, which means one needs to focus on such higher-order qualities as the presentation of the soundstage and the accuracy of the imaging, neither of which can be measured."
These comments concluded the Ayre KX-R Twenty review.
TubeHiFiNut
Super Member
Great story! :yes: :thmbsp:
Tom Bombadil
AK Member
It wasn't such an "elaborate" test. Same DAC feeding two different preamps which then went into a high quality A/B switchbox and one output to the amp.
At times I used the same brand and type interconnects to/from each preamp, at other times I varied them. The interconnects used made no discernible difference to me, or others who listened to the comparison.
Only measurements preformed were on volume from the speakers, where volume was level matched to within 0.1dB using test tones of different frequencies. Volumes measured exactly the same for each preamp when they were directly connected to the amp with no switchbox in line.
hifitommy
Super Member
interconnecting cables are unlikely to be differentiated in a/b/x testing, UNLESS that is the only variant and relatively very good electronics are used. this assumes the same for the rest of the system.
these differences are among the most subtle to be discerned but many times can make important refinements in sound. and YES, power cables make a difference too.
these differences are among the most subtle to be discerned but many times can make important refinements in sound. and YES, power cables make a difference too.