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Hyper-ellyptical - worth the hype?

mhainz

Well-Known Member
Howdy.

Question for all you experienced cartridge gurus...

When looking for a replacement stylus is it worth forking out the extra coin to move up from a standard elliptical stylus to a hyper-elliptical? I mean, I'm sure if I'd fork out even more for an SAS or shibata there'd be a noticeable improvement in sound quality (well I'd certainly hope so!) but would there also be a noticeable difference by going to the intermediate stage?

Sorry if I sound totally naïve with my questions...
 
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As you switch from eliptical to line contact needles changes are:

1) reduced wear on needle (definitely - needle life is doubled or more, and possibly reduced record wear... studies have been inconclusive but seemed to trend towards it)
2) longer vertical contact patch MAY (not definite - lots of variables here) read worn records better as it may read above and below the wear line of a record previously played by eliptical and spherical styli
3) at the higher end of the line contact ranges (SAS, MR, ML etc...) the minor radius can go down to 0.2mil or even as low as 0.1mil. - The best elipticals only go as far as 0.2mil. - the narrower radius allows it to track the groove more precisely especially at higher frequencies and in the inner groove - hence reduced inner groove distortion, sibilance, etc... NOTE: typically HE styli are the lower end of line contacts with a minor radius of circa 0.3mil similar to standard elipticals... so this benefit would not be relevant

Negative:
- the narrower the minor radius and the larger the major radius (longer contact patch) - the more difficult the stylus is to align, and the more sensitive it is to proper alignment.
A SAS or Microline is far more sensitive to VTA/SRA variation than is a hypereliptical or eliptical stylus.

My opinion - the decreased wear is worth it - even if it is just because the life of a stylus more than doubles - that alone would make it worthwhile - and the bonus that a line contact needle tends to show lower distortion after having played a record a number of times as compared to an eliptical is a major bonus . (as per the data from the Shure Technical Seminar papers)

SAS and microline are fabulous and definitely a notch up - but depending on the cartridge / stylus not always value for money - sometimes the HE just hits the target on bang for the buck...
 
I regard the HE tips as worth it. Dialoum states very well why. Recommended for most records for the stylus life gain alone. But make sure VTA/SRA and overhang are dialed in well. I regard the HE tip as the best bang for the buck between a plain elliptical and a Shibata or Microline tip or a SAS.
 
I won't write a dissertation here. The guys above have already stated what needs to be stated. I will just add that I agree completely. The difference is worthwhile and pretty amazing at times.

P.S. Okay, one more point. The cantilever and suspension bushing also contribute tremendously to the sound, and in most case, probably not all, the nicer cut diamond is mounted on a better cantilever with a better suspension. Two more pluses.
 
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yes...the hype is very much worth it sound quality wise. the hyper-ellipticals/line contacts/microridges/shibatas are more finicky about precise setup and alignment, but the rewards are great.
 
I've been using a Jico SAS stylus for several years now on three cartridges, two Shure V-15 III's and a V-15 II, and the SAS stylus is well worth the price IMO. I bought my first V-15 III in 1973 so I'm very familiar with the sound of this cartridge and the first time I heard the SAS stylus/V-15 III combo I was blown away.
 
As you switch from eliptical to line contact needles changes are:

1) reduced wear on needle (definitely - needle life is doubled or more, and possibly reduced record wear... studies have been inconclusive but seemed to trend towards it)
2) longer vertical contact patch MAY (not definite - lots of variables here) read worn records better as it may read above and below the wear line of a record previously played by eliptical and spherical styli
3) at the higher end of the line contact ranges (SAS, MR, ML etc...) the minor radius can go down to 0.2mil or even as low as 0.1mil. - The best elipticals only go as far as 0.2mil. - the narrower radius allows it to track the groove more precisely especially at higher frequencies and in the inner groove - hence reduced inner groove distortion, sibilance, etc... NOTE: typically HE styli are the lower end of line contacts with a minor radius of circa 0.3mil similar to standard elipticals... so this benefit would not be relevant

Negative:
- the narrower the minor radius and the larger the major radius (longer contact patch) - the more difficult the stylus is to align, and the more sensitive it is to proper alignment.
A SAS or Microline is far more sensitive to VTA/SRA variation than is a hypereliptical or eliptical stylus.

My opinion - the decreased wear is worth it - even if it is just because the life of a stylus more than doubles - that alone would make it worthwhile - and the bonus that a line contact needle tends to show lower distortion after having played a record a number of times as compared to an eliptical is a major bonus . (as per the data from the Shure Technical Seminar papers)

SAS and microline are fabulous and definitely a notch up - but depending on the cartridge / stylus not always value for money - sometimes the HE just hits the target on bang for the buck...

+1

For me the key in terms of sound quality is the smaller minor radius of a better stylus. High frequency distortion, and especial IGD is one of main problems to overcome in vinyl playback. Given the stylus/vinyl contact is the first link in the replay chain, it's imperative that the signal is retrieved with the least distortion possible since you can't recover faults further down the line.

Micro Lines and Micro Ridge are the best IME.
One added benefit is consistency as the minor radius remains constant as the tip wears. This sets the ML/MR stylus apart from all other types, which start to increase their minor radii from day one of use.

I discussed tip profiles at length with Prof Van Den Hul. In his opinion the MR/ML has one potential problem in that they scoop debris from the groove and this can collect behind the ridge. It's an interesting idea and I can see the logic, though I've never noticed any problem in practice. VDH favours extremely fine minor radii of 2um where possible and his best stones are ground to this spec.
 
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Howdy.

Question for all you experienced cartridge gurus...

When looking for a replacement stylus is it worth forking out the extra coin to move up from a standard elliptical stylus to a hyper-elliptical? I mean, I'm sure if I'd fork out even more for an SAS or shibata there'd be a noticeable improvement in sound quality (well I'd certainly hope so!) but would there also be a noticeable difference by going to the intermediate stage?

Sorry if I sound totally naïve with my questions...

hype-o-thetically. :D

John
 
The line contact on my AT MLA-440 has made many previously somewhat noisy LP's from my 60's and 70's collection truly enjoyable to listen too. I will probably never go back to elliptical styli. For a few bucks more you can get the benefits of the better shaped styli.
 
Lots of good comments above. I would add two things. First, noise levels when playing used records can be dramatically lower when changing to line contact stylus profile, probably because the stylus is playing a different, and undamaged part of the groove (usually deeper into the groove).

I have found that the line contact styli in the MC cartridges I have now been using for a while tend to be quite long-lived. Whether this is from the particular cut of the styli, or because these more expensive cartridges use better grade diamonds (or both reasons) I don't know. Good styli are made from natural diamonds and the lattice structure is oriented so as to reduce wear on the styli.

I have cartridges with close to 2,000 hours on them that still sound good. One manufacturer, claims that more than 3,000 hours is possible if the records and the stylus are kept clean (a big factor in terms of wear on both).
 
Lots of good comments above. I would add two things. First, noise levels when playing used records can be dramatically lower when changing to line contact stylus profile, probably because the stylus is playing a different, and undamaged part of the groove (usually deeper into the groove).

Not really - the wear "track" with an eliptical or spherical stylus is about half way up the groove wall.

With a line contact design, the contact patch is vertically long rather than being a small circle or elipse - so it makes contact with the groove wall both above and below the wear "track". Hence the potential for lower noise levels.

The Shure research also showed lower distortion on long term use with a line contact.... which is interesting - the change when compared with eliptical was favourable - but was still a greater change. (ie the line contact had lower harmonic distortion when playing a record the 20th time than when playing the record the first time)

Bye for now

David

P.S. you really don't want the needle "deeper" in the groove, as if the tip touches the bottom things get nasty! - that terminology is quite wrong and there is a mythology about "narrower" tips going deeper, which is due to a misunderstanding of the specs - the narrower minor radius (such as 0.2mil) is a SIDE radius and only affects the size of the horizontal contact patch - it has no impact on vertical location in the groove
 
dlaoum,

Yes, I was being a bit simplistic. The wear higher up the groove would be in the form of "pits" that the line contact would not see by contacting the groove deeper as well as above the contact point of conical and elliptical styli.

I also read somewhere that as a line contact stylus contact patch wears down, the rounding of the narrow profile is pretty benign in terms of loss of performance and potential for damaging the groove.

Whatever the reason, I am very satisfied with the longevity of the Lyra and Transfiguration cartridges I have been using now for quite some time. I am also very happy with the "real world" tracking ability of these cartridges--they may not track the "torture test" tracks on test records as well as the Shure cartridges I had long ago, but, they do perfectly fine with all of my music and don't go bad in just a few hundred hours, like those Shure cartridges did.
 
I have read this thread with enthusiasm, as an SAS is in my future, to be mated with either a shure m97xe that had its original stylus broken, OR a vintage Shure M95EJ. I'll need to figure out which would benefit more.

Don't know if an 8MZ w/Grado black qualifies, but damn, I been loving my vinyl ever since Chrimmus. WHOO!
 
The M95 and M97 are the exact same body electrically - the only difference between them is the damping brush - which has a lot of benefits.

It not only controls the low frequency resonance (below 20Hz) but as a result also leads to reduced harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and improved tracking...

I would definitely go for the M97 as the one for the SAS upgrade....

I have converted my p-mount Shures into pseudo M97-SAS - they also use the same generator as the M97 and M95, and when combined with the N97xE-SAS are very good indeed.

bye for now

David
 
dlaoum,

Yes, I was being a bit simplistic. The wear higher up the groove would be in the form of "pits" that the line contact would not see by contacting the groove deeper as well as above the contact point of conical and elliptical styli.

I also read somewhere that as a line contact stylus contact patch wears down, the rounding of the narrow profile is pretty benign in terms of loss of performance and potential for damaging the groove.

Whatever the reason, I am very satisfied with the longevity of the Lyra and Transfiguration cartridges I have been using now for quite some time. I am also very happy with the "real world" tracking ability of these cartridges--they may not track the "torture test" tracks on test records as well as the Shure cartridges I had long ago, but, they do perfectly fine with all of my music and don't go bad in just a few hundred hours, like those Shure cartridges did.

Hehe Larry, you are playing with the big boys then....

But the Shure cartridges of yore did at their top end have hyperelipticals (like the original V15V) and later they released MicroRidge versions/styli for the V15III/IV/V - so they ultimately did go down this path as well.

Microridge was Shures proprietary name for the Namiki patented profile - the needles may well have been Namiki OEM, and it appears to be the only surviving major manufacturer of exotic needle profiles - FritzGeiger has shut down now (everything available now with FG tips is stuff that the manufacturers stocked up on) - VdH had their tips made by FG as well.
Jico SAS and Audio Technica Microline are also the Namiki profile.

I don't think there is anything else being manufactured out there at the top end of line contact needles. (someone is clearly still making Shibata's but that is a notch down from the Namiki/VdH/FG level)

I wonder what the Lyra and transfiguration use for their profile and who makes it?

bye for now

David
 
Advanced stylus profile does improve the sound by reduction of noise and distortions. But side effect is sensitivity to cartridge and tonearm alignment.
 
Thanks for all the replies. This is such a great place to learn...and get confused...

So if advanced stylus profiles are so beneficial to have, what is the reasoning behind quite pricey cartridges still sticking with spherical / conical tips? I can understand why a cheap entry level cart would have this due to manufacturing costs but why would, for instance, AT5e @$95 or Denon DL103 @ $200 feature a conical tip?

Are there some cases where a conical tip is actually preferred?
 
Thanks for all the replies. This is such a great place to learn...and get confused...

So if advanced stylus profiles are so beneficial to have, what is the reasoning behind quite pricey cartridges still sticking with spherical / conical tips? I can understand why a cheap entry level cart would have this due to manufacturing costs but why would, for instance, AT5e @$95 or Denon DL103 @ $200 feature a conical tip?

Are there some cases where a conical tip is actually preferred?

Denon 103 is made almost the same for 40 years. Conical stylus is good if you do not want to earth about fine alignment, like in professional applications.
 
When the original hyperelliptical was introduced, the advantages according to Shure (who designed it as their answer to JVC’s patented Shibata tip, to avoid paying a licence fee to JVC to use the Shibata) included the fact that as an extended line contact it provided much lower distortion (both THD and IMD) than the other stylus shapes they sold.

Shure introduced it on their 1978 best cartridge, the V15 Type IV, and their figures showed that second harmonic distortion percentages at 8 kHz for the different stylus shapes were:
Spherical stylus 6.4%, hyperbolic 4.0%, elliptical 4.0% and hyperelliptical 2.8%.

Intermodulation distortion percentages for the two frequencies 1 kHz and 1.5 kHz for the different stylus shapes were:
Spherical stylus 2.8%, hyperbolic 1.8%, elliptical 1.8% and hyperelliptical 1.4%.

So those are fairly significant reductions in distortion, and should be worthwhile, particularly as you’ll also be getting less stylus and record wear for a hyperelliptical compared to an elliptical. Whether an aftermarket hyperelliptical is as good as Shure’s original probably depends on the maker, but if it’s a reasonable copy, the same advantages should be available.

So if advanced stylus profiles are so beneficial to have, what is the reasoning behind quite pricey cartridges still sticking with spherical / conical tips? I can understand why a cheap entry level cart would have this due to manufacturing costs but why would, for instance, AT5e @$95 or Denon DL103 @ $200 feature a conical tip?

Are there some cases where a conical tip is actually preferred?

The AT95E actually has an elliptical stylus - that's what the 'E' in AT95E signifies - it's a 0.4 x 0.7 mil elliptical. But if it was available with a conical (it may be - perhaps there is an AT95C!) it would cost a bit less.

The Denon DL-103 has been around for 50 years now (introduced 1963), and is a nice sounding cartridge, which is why it's stuck with the conical stylus. But they have produced modified versions with lower tracking force and elliptical styli, such as the DL-103S, DL-103D and DL-103M, which were all pricier, but sounded better, with better high frequency response. It's just that because the DL-103 is relatively good value, since the original design costs were paid for long ago, that they've stuck to that design for over 50 years - they have also modified it in various ways, including with elliptical styli.

The main reason why a conical stylus is preferred is usually because it costs less - the more complex shapes all take longer to make, and cost more as a result. A conical is also much easier to set up - other shapes require more careful alignment, or distortion is increased, and the full potential of the better shapes won't be reached.
 
Sorry I actually meant the Audio Technica AT5V which is 90 odd bucks and conical.
Anyway thanks for all the info; I'm pretty much getting the gist of it now.
 
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