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Hypothetical. . Rega RP6 vs. Technics SL-1210MK2 vs. Marantz TT-15S1

ODS123 said:
... My hunch is that someone who reads grottyash's post and gusten's and my responses will probably find far more fault with grottyash's comparison methodology than they do with mine. My attempts at eliminating expectation-bias may be less than perfect, but grottyash's are completely unabashedly non-existent.
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Sad part is, many of the people who read the subjective-review rags such as Stereophile and hang on every word written by their favorite Golden Ears will have no problem with grottyash's methodology. The fact that it provides no controls against expectation bias is unimportant to them.
 
frankbooth said:
Or, maybe he just liked the sound of that table better?
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Ding ding ding.

Some of us want this to be fun and not a second job.

As for the slights against those of us who put some stock in subjective reviews, I'm simply reacting to the hypocrisy of a bunch of guys who make unproven grossly simplistic and biased claims to some things (Esp in regards to digital) while calling for, no -DEMANDING, science when it fits their interest. It's a complete double standard.

When I see an ABX test of different ADCs i'll believe you guys are serious.
 
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I don't know- I always expect the ABX inquisition. I just don't expect them to understand how blatantly flawed their own biases and assumptions make their own tests.

"I filtered these two signals through a cheap ADC and whatever RIAA i thought acceptable then listened to it back via a jitter-filled output into a system full of its own difference-leveling colorations and this allows me to get on my audio high-horse and tell somebody else that is making a comparison in exactly the way they would enjoy their stereo that they're doing it wrong and have no business persuing a hobby in whatever way they find entertaining."
 
JohnVF said:
"I filtered these two signals through a cheap ADC and whatever RIAA i thought acceptable then listened to it back via a jitter-filled output into a system full of its own difference-leveling colorations and this allows me to get on my audio high-horse and tell somebody else that is making a comparison in exactly the way they would enjoy their stereo that they're doing it wrong and have no business persuing a hobby in whatever way they find entertaining."
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I have a pretty good ADC in my computer. :dunno:
 
Greyson said:
I have a pretty good ADC in my computer. :dunno:
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Did you blind test varieties of them to come to that conclusion or did you just go an an assumption that its good enough?

I don't ask because I really expect you to do that, but rather, the double standard of you saying yours is "pretty good" and going with that, while being a part of a group that thinks somebody just comparing two turntables isn't good enough for the purposes of just posting observations on a forum.
 
JohnVF said:
Did you blind test varieties of them to come to that conclusion or did you just go an an assumption that its good enough?

I don't ask because I really expect you to do that, but rather, the double standard of you saying yours is "pretty good" and going with that, while being a part of a group that thinks somebody just comparing two turntables isn't good enough for the purposes of just posting observations on a forum.
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Blind? No. There has always been some degree of expectation bias. I've been using computer audio for many years and I have personal experience with a bevy of products but i've never sat down and A/B'd them. I don't have the luxury of keeping a bunch of expensive ADC's sitting on a shelf, buying a new one means selling the old one for part of the cost. I try to do my research, demo the product if I can, and make an informed decision.

I can't speak for other people in this thread, however, I don't think I have a double standard. I have always argued that personal experience and perceptions outweigh mere scientific data and someone listening to a few turntables and saying which one is better is enough for me. However, I draw a line between saying "this is my opinion" and saying "this is my opinion and I think that's enough for me to outright say on turntable is better than another". People come to this forum for knowledge with no indication of the experience of the user behind the keyboard, so one persons opinion is anothers objective fact. There's a big difference and people are typically all too vague about making that distinction.

I also don't post in threads that I can't offer a personal opinion from experience on. I can still be completely wrong however I think that's worth something, I don't come here just to be negative about equipment I don't own.
 
Greyson said:
Blind? No. There has always been some degree of expectation bias. I've been using computer audio for many years and I have personal experience with a bevy of products but i've never sat down and A/B'd them. I don't have the luxury of keeping a bunch of expensive ADC's sitting on a shelf, buying a new one means selling the old one for part of the cost. I try to do my research, demo the product if I can, and make an informed decision.

I can't speak for other people in this thread, however, I don't think I have a double standard. I have always argued that personal experience and perceptions outweigh mere scientific data and someone listening to a few turntables and saying which one is better is enough for me. However, I draw a line between saying "this is my opinion" and saying "this is my opinion and I think that's enough for me to outright say on turntable is better than another". People come to this forum for knowledge with no indication of the experience of the user behind the keyboard, so one persons opinion is anothers objective fact. There's a big difference and people are typically all too vague about making that distinction.

I also don't post in threads that I can't offer a personal opinion from experience on. I can still be completely wrong however I think that's worth something, I don't come here just to be negative about equipment I don't own.
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That seems fair enough. I think I'm wrongly lumping you in with the crowd I take issue with out of my own angst and anger towards them. I really do think the ABX no-fun, this is SERIOUS BUSINESS crap is a big reason audio at the levels we pursue it at is such a niche pursuit. I've seen new people's eyes glaze over and take on the look of somebody at a party where somebody's peeing in the snack mix when all this stuff gets tossed around when they just want to listen and have a good time.

It's not that important. It's a hobby. Its not the Spanish Inquisition. If somebody likes something as opposed to something else, its just their opinion. They get to form it however they want, and post whatever they want to about it.
 
I think "expectation bias" is one of those terms that should be dropped from AK. In the context of how it is USUALLY used here, it is full of nasty,negative attitude. That is, it's usually used to dismiss someone else's impressions or view on what they have experienced. Frequently, this is when they are doing what audio equipment has been used as it is designed to be used: to play music.
 
Bigerik said:
I think "expectation bias" is one of those terms that should be dropped from AK. In the context of how it is USUALLY used here, it is full of nasty,negative attitude. That is, it's usually used to dismiss someone else's impressions or view on what they have experienced. Frequently, this is when they are doing what audio equipment has been used as it is designed to be used: to play music.
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There are a few terms that would meet that criteria. Otherwise innocuous words that people use to imply a negative attitude to a particular part of the hobby.

I try to be as objective as I can, but in a hypothetical sitaution where I just spent money buying a new piece of audio equipment that cost more than the old one, I have a certain expectation of quality. It was more expensive, so it has to be better, right? I've returned a few products that boasted better specs on paper and didn't sound all that much better in practice, however, usually the more expensive item sounds better to my ears than the old one. Could genuinely be better, could be a placebo effect.
 
Greyson said:
There are a few terms that would meet that criteria. Otherwise innocuous words that people use to imply a negative attitude to a particular part of the hobby.

I try to be as objective as I can, but in a hypothetical sitaution where I just spent money buying a new piece of audio equipment that cost more than the old one, I have a certain expectation of quality. It was more expensive, so it has to be better, right? I've returned a few products that boasted better specs on paper and didn't sound all that much better in practice, however, usually the more expensive item sounds better to my ears than the old one. Could genuinely be better, could be a placebo effect.
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I don't buy it, because I have been so disappointed so many times by gear I just KNEW would be better than what I have, but wasn't. It would only take seconds for the reality to kick in that it sounded like crap. Or at least not as good as what I had before. If not in the first seconds/minutes/hours then definitely after a week or two of listening, I would certainly know it. Usually it wouldn't take that long.

And I agree that there are a bunch of terms that meet that criteria. Would make for an interesting list. :)
 
So why did I hate the 100lb, expensive, overbuilt Mark Levinson 331 I had here last week, almost from the get-go? Everything about it would suggest that I should be biased to love it. Nope, there was no coming around on that thing. It sucked. Eyes closed, eyes opened. Doesn't matter, I hate it. If I were to not be able to distinguish it in a blind test, would I then be expected to love it regardless of all of that?

Why can I hear that my $300 Mitsubishi LT-30 in many ways stacks up to my $2500 VPI? I could run either one for the rest of my vinyl days and be quite happy.

How does my Berkeley Alpha DAC stack up to a $11,500 CD player, in sighted listening? It shouldn't, the EMM Labs is supposed to be better going by its price tag.

Why do I listen for hours to my tubed phono preamp, but get bored after 3 songs running the input on my preamp? Is closing my eyes going to change that?

What does noticing a difference tell you about long-term satisfaction? All that a short term difference signals is that...there is a difference. Who knows whether you'd like it in the long run.

I can't even remember how many times I wanted to love something- something expensive, something supposed to be "the best", something I've been told would be good- only to be disappointed.
 
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