Hypothetical. . Rega RP6 vs. Technics SL-1210MK2 vs. Marantz TT-15S1

[Bigerik]

And I don't disagree with any of that, which is why I worded my previous response the way I did. A good audio retailer will help a customer determine what he likes and doesn't like in sound, and they will invite that customer to bring in his entire existing system, if any, to let him hear how each component may or may not be limiting his enjoyment compared with other available products. In-home demonstrations as well as delivery and setup of the component or system purchased was also part of the service our customers could expect. What we wanted to help customers avoid was the merry-go-round of continually buying and selling components in hopes of finally getting a system that worked for them; our goal was to establish, by audition, what would work for them so that their first purchase was a long-term, satisfying one.

I guess I've gotten so used to the crap quality of service that makes up the audio sales world nowadays, at least for most people on here, that I don't even consider that people have an option for that anymore. I always recommend to people that they listen in their own home. You really can't know what it is unless you listen there. Thankfully, I do have a good local dealer, and have an excellent relationship with him. But I have 6 million people living in a 50 mile radius of where I live, so there are still some decent stores around. But it seems to be turning into the exception, not the rule.

What you recommend is certainly how things should work. A good audio dealer would become a lifelong friend. They would know what YOU liked, not what they liked, and recommend accordingly. They would also know how to introduce you or challenge you to new gear or music. I know I had that relationship many times. And it certainly is lots of fun!

 

[toroechado]

Why Rega doesn't publish their turntables specs? I really dislike when a brand is not honest with their customers. Anyone except Thechnics is not in shame when publishing their wow & flutter, speed accuracy and S/N ratio numbers? I don't want to thing that some manufacturers hide the number intentionally like Bose does with the frequency response of their all in one systems...

 

[Stacker45]

If you think the Technics is beaten by the Rega only in the tonearm, I've got news for you...That's quite enough. The tonearm is a pretty big deal.

Somehow i knew you'd come up with something like that, i happend to think that everything is important, the plinth, the motor, the feets, so even if Rega has the best arm, even if it doesn't have VTA ajustment, i still think that it's the only advantage it has over the 1200.

 

[gusten]

Doing comparisons is a way to increase our knowledge of how products differ and how those differences might relate to our enjoyment of recorded music. I don't see how increased information should be confusing. It's possible that doing comparisons might make a person wish they'd made a different choice (or just as likely confirm that they made the right choice), but that's learning from experience, not the creation of confusion.

There is not a real difference in what I proposed, and in what You propose as I see it. To live with the TT and find out if one really likes it seems to be the goal.

That one can demonstate a TT and compare it with another to such extent and objectivity that one knows one will be pleased in the long run, I don´t think You are saying. So out of these three TTs one can just really pick one and see how pleased one will be, after living with it for some time.
gusten

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

Somehow i knew you'd come up with something like that, i happend to think that everything is important, the plinth, the motor, the feets, so even if Rega has the best arm, even if it doesn't have VTA ajustment, i still think that it's the only advantage it has over the 1200.

We're all having the exact same polarized debate we always do. This place is a caricature of a Turntables forum.

 

[gusten]

Why Rega doesn't publish their turntables specs? I really dislike when a brand is not honest with their customers. Anyone except Thechnics is not in shame when publishing their wow & flutter, speed accuracy and S/N ratio numbers? I don't want to thing that some manufacturers hide the number intentionally like Bose does with the frequency response of their all in one systems...

I partly agree, but I really don´t think a published number means much.
gusten

 

[illini]

Why Rega doesn't publish their turntables specs? I really dislike when a brand is not honest with their customers. Anyone except Thechnics is not in shame when publishing their wow & flutter, speed accuracy and S/N ratio numbers? I don't want to thing that some manufacturers hide the number intentionally like Bose does with the frequency response of their all in one systems...

I agree. I'm glad cartridge and styli manufacturers still provide specs, but who knows what's down the road.

 

[Bob_in_OKC]

I agree. I'm glad cartridge and styli manufacturers still provide specs, but who knows what's down the road.

What value is there in cartridge specs, as a measure of quality?

 

[Bigerik]

What value is there in cartridge specs, as a measure of quality?

And since when have specifications from a manufacturer been released under oath? They are used as advertising, and need to be relied on as much as any other advertising material.

 

[jrtrent]

That one can demonstate a TT and compare it with another to such extent and objectivity that one knows one will be pleased in the long run, I don´t think You are saying.

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.

So out of these three TTs one can just really pick one and see how pleased one will be, after living with it for some time.

When a person is considering a Marantz, a Technics, and a Rega, I don't see how they can know which will be the most pleasing, which is, after all, the point of making a choice, without comparing them. To buy one and live with it for some time would mean having to eventually buy all of them if you were curious about their relative merits, and by then you'd have been better off looking at 'tables in the $3000-4000 range to begin with.

 

[Bigerik]

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.

So out of these three TTs one can just really pick one and see how pleased one will be, after living with it for some time.

When a person is considering a Marantz, a Technics, and a Rega, I don't see how they can know which will be the most pleasing, which is, after all, the point of making a choice, without comparing them. To buy one and live with it for some time would mean having to eventually buy all of them if you were curious about their relative merits, and by then you'd have been better off looking at 'tables in the $3000-4000 range to begin with.

Which is why I have ended up owning near enough every turntable under the sun, at one time or another.

 

[JohnVF]

It's not possible to know the merit of anything audio related until you live with it in your own system. You won't know if specs correlate to listening, you won't know if it really is or isn't better than what you have, and you won't know if ultimately you'll like something or not. It's good to hear things in whatever context as opposed to not hearing them at all, but you really need to audition on gear your familiar with, for an extended period.

 

[gusten]

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying.

[QUTOE]So out of these three TTs one can just really pick one and see how pleased one will be, after living with it for some time.

When a person is considering a Marantz, a Technics, and a Rega, I don't see how they can know which will be the most pleasing, which is, after all, the point of making a choice, without comparing them. To buy one and live with it for some time would mean having to eventually buy all of them if you were curious about their relative merits, and by then you'd have been better off looking at 'tables in the $3000-4000 range to begin with.[/QUOTE]

I was hoping You didn´t say that. I can only say that comparing anything in a way that You mean has never helped me. It could help if auditioning one really bad and one really good. But that´s not the case here.
My experience is You have to live with and experience the component for a rather long time. I fail to see it in any other way.
gusten

 

[JohnVF]

None of these tables is going to hav it all and you'll have to decide which has the balance that works best for you. They're all very good but they're different. A direct comparison can often point out differences but often won't suggest if they matter in the long run. Like Erik, I've owned a lot of options looking for what suits me. It's expensive but it passes the time and is a good learning experience.

I think the OP is being very smart about this.

 

[jrtrent]

Like Erik, I've owned a lot of options looking for what suits me. It's expensive but it passes the time and is a good learning experience.

I have no complaints if buying lots of gear to live with long-term at home is something a person finds pleasing and a way of spending their time and money that they enjoy. My goal, and that of my customers when I worked in audio sales, was a bit different. We wanted to assemble a system we liked, taking advantage of the experience of the sales personnel and their demonstration facilities to help us make a good choice the first time, with the expectation of using it for the next 15-20 years and not keep spending our money continually looking for good sound. Or if we had an existing system but needed to replace one of the components, a good dealer can not only demonstrate the differences in available products, but also explain and demonstrate which piece would be most complementary to our existing systems and sonic goals. I know that you and Gusten don't think that's possible, but the experience of an awful lot of satisfied customers at the local hi-fi shops tells me it is.

 

[kamiraa]

Yes, attempting to compare all three with your own ears is the smart approach. I haven't heard the Marantz, though I have heard Clearaudio models, nor do I have much time with an RP6; I've certainly never come close to the type of comparison you are hoping to arrange, so take these thoughts as just general impressions of similar 'tables.

Clearaudio products, to my ears, have excellent extension, detail retrieval, and spatial properties--music can come across as quite vivid on a Clearaudio design. However, they fail to engage me with the music like some other designs do. Another poster decried the use of terms like pace, rhythm, and timing, but I have to confess that those are the most important areas for me. I can enjoy a closed-in, airless, spatially constricted, and dark performance as long as the music has good pace, flow, and is rhythmically intelligible.

The Technics SL1200 does not have the spatial and detail recovery strengths of the Clearaudio, but I find it does have better timing and marginally better rhythmic integrity. For that reason, I would prefer the Technics to the Clearaudios I've heard.

Unlike some others in this thread, I really like even the bottom-of-the-line Regas. The Technics may be better at timing, but the Regas are among the most rhythmically adept turntables on the market and exhibit better pace also. In comparing an SL1200 to the Rega P1, the P1 was easily the more musically engaging 'table to my ears. Michael Trei of Sound and Vision compared the P1, Music Hall MMF 2.2, and the SL1200 Mk II, and found both of the entry-level belt drives to sound better to him than the Technics.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20005951-47.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/face-best-turntable-budget?page=0,3

I'm hoping, of course, that the Marantz you bought proves to be everything you hoped for for this turntable purchase. If it shares the strengths and weaknesses of the Clearaudio 'tables I've heard, that's not necessarily a bad thing because many vinyl fans live for just those attributes that Clearaudio excels in. My foregoing comments were in no way meant to say I think the Marantz might be a "bad" choice; they were simply intended to point out that turntable designs differ in how they present music, and that different people can prefer one style of presentation over another. As you're hoping to do, you just need to audition the ones you're interested in to discern which has the balance of strengths you prefer. It will be very interesting to hear your comments and conclusions if you get a chance to do that.

very elegant response, I appreciate it. Thanks

 

[osageaudio]

Hi Jrtrent,

Thank you. You hit the nail on the head with your comments. Well over 90% of the people that we sell to are in the market for a system that will serve them for about 20 years. They have a budget, they know the features that they want, and they buy name brand product that carries a good warranty and is built by a company. And more often than anytime in the past few years, our customers are demanding product made in the USA.

It's a different picture than what we see when we read internet audio forums, review websites, and the audio print magazines. The reason for that is very simple: Those venues are for the "audio enthusiast" group, which is a very small percentage of the population that buys stereo components. It's not much different than automobiles. You have a small percentage of "automobile enthusiasts" who enjoy reading about cars, among a very large group of automobile owners who are so enthusiastic about the car so much as they are about what the car accomplishes for them in practical terms.

For some reason, with audio these two different mindsets seem to be so far removed from each other that one group does not recognize the other. It's one of those things I guess.

Happy listening.

 

[JohnVF]

Every audio store I've dealt with in Chicago has offered in-home audition of any major purchase I've made. In fact, they encourage it and recommend it. I'm just saying that it's the only way to be sure. Nobody, not even an experienced dealer, knows your taste more than you do. It's different if somebody just wants a recommendation and then be done with it. We ARE on an audio forum so we all at least have the idea that we want to pick what is best for our taste.

 

[osageaudio]

Hi JohnVF,

A lot of people want an in-home demo when they are buying one or two components. I've driven as far as Knoxville, TN to accommodate customers in doing this. The customer I referred to, and the one Jrtrent is referring to, I think, is the customer who is buying a whole system.

The primary concern of the customers that I most often have contact with is the viability of what they are buying over the long term. After all, simply put, they are buying is a home electrical appliance. They want something that will hold up over a long period of time and that can be reliably and professionally maintained throughout the term of their ownership. They want their investment to be protected.

This is a vastly different outlook on the situation as that of the audio enthusiast. They aren't buying for exactly the same reasons, and they won't make their choices the same way. In fact, they are more studied and deliberate in their choices and they darn sure do see and hear before they buy; mostly by way of me driving components to their homes and hooking them up for them.

So back to my point: The common buyer and the audio enthusiast buyer find different aspects of the purchase to be the most important. The common buyer is more interested in trouble free, long term ownership of their purchase (meaning 20+ years), and all the things that go into having that happen. The audio enthusiast generally has different priorities.

I've been in most of the audio shops in and around Chicago over the past 30 years. I believe that they mostly cater to the audio enthusiast crowd. Their business models are structured for that type of customer. We do some advertising in the audio enthusiast market segment, but our primary advertising is targeted at young professionals and homeowners, and small metropolitan markets.

So the shops that you frequent probably specialize in customers like you, and I know that some of them do that very, very well. Some of the best high-end dealers in the country are in the Chicago area. They may not have so much saturation within the rest of the stereo buying populace. I can't speak for them, but I do know the demographic that we serve.

Happy listening.

 

[jrtrent]

A lot of people want an in-home demo when they are buying one or two components. I've driven as far as Knoxville, TN to accommodate customers in doing this.

That's impressive--over 600 miles each way! The furthest I drove when working for an audio store was a bit over 200 miles each way, and that was just to deliver an LP12 the customer had already purchased. But no matter the distance, the in-home demos were always a lot of fun and much appreciated by the customer.