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Hypothetical. . Rega RP6 vs. Technics SL-1210MK2 vs. Marantz TT-15S1

osageaudio said:
Hi JohnVF,

A lot of people want an in-home demo when they are buying one or two components. I've driven as far as Knoxville, TN to accommodate customers in doing this. The customer I referred to, and the one Jrtrent is referring to, I think, is the customer who is buying a whole system.

The primary concern of the customers that I most often have contact with is the viability of what they are buying over the long term. After all, simply put, they are buying is a home electrical appliance. They want something that will hold up over a long period of time and that can be reliably and professionally maintained throughout the term of their ownership. They want their investment to be protected.

This is a vastly different outlook on the situation as that of the audio enthusiast. They aren't buying for exactly the same reasons, and they won't make their choices the same way. In fact, they are more studied and deliberate in their choices and they darn sure do see and hear before they buy; mostly by way of me driving components to their homes and hooking them up for them.

So back to my point: The common buyer and the audio enthusiast buyer find different aspects of the purchase to be the most important. The common buyer is more interested in trouble free, long term ownership of their purchase (meaning 20+ years), and all the things that go into having that happen. The audio enthusiast generally has different priorities.

I've been in most of the audio shops in and around Chicago over the past 30 years. I believe that they mostly cater to the audio enthusiast crowd. Their business models are structured for that type of customer. We do some advertising in the audio enthusiast market segment, but our primary advertising is targeted at young professionals and homeowners, and small metropolitan markets.

So the shops that you frequent probably specialize in customers like you, and I know that some of them do that very, very well. Some of the best high-end dealers in the country are in the Chicago area. They may not have so much saturation within the rest of the stereo buying populace. I can't speak for them, but I do know the demographic that we serve.

Happy listening.
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Thanks for the thoughtful response. I do agree that there are different mindsets and different markets, and each is best handled with different approaches. Frankly, most people would be better off never becoming "audio enthusiasts" and just getting a well matched (by whoever) system and going back to just enjoying the music without getting as obsessive about it as we all tend to.

But once you're hooked and the littlest things bother you, or you've over time really gotten into a particular set of playback parameters, then I do think that you have to live with something, or at least, buy with the option of returning if it doesn't work out. I've liked many things in store that were so-so at home, and some things that were underwhelming in the store turned out to be much better when I could get them here and play around with the synergy between it and gear that I have around.

Chicago IS a great audio town...great stores and great people. Pretty much any approach you want is within a short drive.
 
Hi JohnVF,

Fortunately most people who buy stereo components are not audio enthusiasts and are not obsessive about it. Most of those people are more obsessive about their flooring and their cooktops. But they do have music playing in the house just about all of the waking hours that they are at home.

I'm tired of typing, but feel free to call sometime to chat a little more. The moderators probably wouldn't want me to put our phone number here, but you can find it on our website. We're open seven days a week most weeks, from about 07:00 to about 19:00.

Happy listening.
 
Hi Jrtrent,

Just noticed your post and I have a few words left in my fingers.

I've made a few other trips of equal length to the trips to Knoxville. We seem to fill a need for customers in towns about that size that have no local shops, or no shops handling what they are looking for. I ship a lot of items for customers to try as well, just as all the other shops that do mail order business.

What I've found is that people who go to the trouble to ask for an in home demo are buyers, and it's up to you to screw that up.

I have seem some interesting homes and I've been asked to stay for dinner quite a few times. I have a tense situation from time to time as well. I had to install a Graham tonearm on a Teres turntable that I had never seen before awhile back, in a basement room with no windows where the light fixture over the turntable had had the ballast blow out. I did quite a bit of that work holding a flashlight in my mouth. I wasn't about to try and move the Teres. I didn't have a forklift with me anyway.

Things turned out fine and went spent a couple of hours digging through the customer's records afterward.

All of the in home things I've done have turned out to be pleasant.

Happy listening.
 
KentTeffeteller said:
All of us here on this post learned something, including me. Enjoy the music. Have fun!
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I definitely learned something! This thread got me curious, and this past Sunday I picked up a near-mint 1200MK2 for $250 (which included a $100 Ortofon Concord). I have to say I'm very impressed. I don't think I can do a fair head-to-head until the OM 20 stylus I ordered to pop in the Concord headshell arrives, but I am comfortable saying even with the DJ needle it absolutely bests the entry-level Rega I paid over twice as much for.
 
A near mint 1200mk2 for $250 is a serious score in my book. Very interested in your impressions with the OM20 stylus. Enjoy.
 
Bigerik said:
I don't disagree with any of that. However, it can be very difficult to do comparisons with things like turntables. Just coming in cold into a store, likely listening to a system you don't know, different cartridge, different phono preamp, in a strange room, makes the comparison harder. It is also tough when you haven't established a baseline for what you really like and don't like in a sound. That's why I suggested living with it for a while and getting used to it first, then what you know what you like about it, and don't like about it, see what if you can find something you like more.

You really have to spend time with turntables in particular, I find. Store demos only show the biggest of differences. It's the subtleties that make you love a piece for the long term, or not. And those take many nights of relaxed listening to really come through.
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This really is so true. some audio components hit one relatively directly upon hearing in a shop (speakers in particular) the farther up the chain I find the less this is true. Gross differences in tables are apparent in such circumstances, but without hearing repeatedly with a wide variety of material in your own system at home how to tell? Not that I have actually bought 90% of the tables I have that way, mind you.
 
rolltide said:
I definitely learned something! This thread got me curious, and this past Sunday I picked up a near-mint 1200MK2 for $250 (which included a $100 Ortofon Concord). I have to say I'm very impressed. I don't think I can do a fair head-to-head until the OM 20 stylus I ordered to pop in the Concord headshell arrives, but I am comfortable saying even with the DJ needle it absolutely bests the entry-level Rega I paid over twice as much for.
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Great deal. Can't beat that. I was searching for one like that for ages. All I found was old DJ tables in iffy shape.
 
fiddlefye said:
This really is so true. some audio components hit one relatively directly upon hearing in a shop (speakers in particular) the farther up the chain I find the less this is true. Gross differences in tables are apparent in such circumstances, but without hearing repeatedly with a wide variety of material in your own system at home how to tell? Not that I have actually bought 90% of the tables I have that way, mind you.
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Yesterday I put my Well Tempered back in play. At first I was all "This is great, maybe its better than the VPI?". At the end of the day, the VPI was back in its spot, happily spinning tunes. Some things that weren't readily apparent began to annoy me as the day went on. Things that the VPI didn't do. It took about 6 hours to go back to the VPI. And as soon as I did I remembered why it was there in the first place. But I don't expect somebody to spend 6 hours auditioning in a store. The most I've spent was about 3 1/2 with the Kef LS-50, and even then I only felt comfortable doing that because I knew the staff.
 
beej said:
A near mint 1200mk2 for $250 is a serious score in my book. Very interested in your impressions with the OM20 stylus. Enjoy.
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I'm excited as well. One of the reasons I wanted a 1200 was so I had something a little more modular/industrial/lackOfBetterWord to teach myself how to replace cartridges and make fine tuning adjustments without worrying about breaking something expensive like the Clearaudio. The guy gave me an unused spare headshell in addition to the Concorde DJ, so I'm thinking about picking up an M97xe or something similar and seeing how my fat fingers can handle it!
 
rolltide said:
I'm excited as well. One of the reasons I wanted a 1200 was so I had something a little more modular/industrial/lackOfBetterWord to teach myself how to replace cartridges and make fine tuning adjustments without worrying about breaking something expensive like the Clearaudio. The guy gave me an unused spare headshell in addition to the Concorde DJ, so I'm thinking about picking up an M97xe or something similar and seeing how my fat fingers can handle it!
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I just bought a NM SL1200MK2, too. Replaced the original cartridge with an M97xE and it sounds wonderful. IMO, the sound of M97xE is on the soft side.
 
JohnVF said:
Yesterday I put my Well Tempered back in play. At first I was all "This is great, maybe its better than the VPI?". At the end of the day, the VPI was back in its spot, happily spinning tunes. Some things that weren't readily apparent began to annoy me as the day went on. Things that the VPI didn't do. It took about 6 hours to go back to the VPI. And as soon as I did I remembered why it was there in the first place. But I don't expect somebody to spend 6 hours auditioning in a store. The most I've spent was about 3 1/2 with the Kef LS-50, and even then I only felt comfortable doing that because I knew the staff.
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I don't feel comfortable taking up space and dominating someone's showroom for all that long either even if I have a major purchase in mind. Even then I could only get a good enough idea to tell me whether I want to try a component in my system at home anyway. No way will I know how I will feel about things in what is not only a different system, but also environment and under the pressure of other people listening and commenting. I want to make my own opinion over some time in complete relaxation in a familiar space and acoustic.

I also have the multiple turntable issue you have, try one and then want to go back to something missing from the other. I think my next solution is going to be to run two tables on one system and one on the other, the Ariston RD11s and Technics SP-15 (eventually with 3 arms) with the C-4/M1 combo and a Braun PS 500 (if I like it as much as I suspect I will once I have heard it of course) with the CJ tube set in another. Between them I should be able to find something that suits at any given time you'd think? Finding one table/arm/cart that suits every recording and mood seems to me to be a greater challenge than I can master. Also I find that either my hearing is a bit different on some days than others or something, but what I enjoy one day might not do it for me so much the next. A one-shot listen in a shop just is not enough.

Oh yeah, and if you're tired of the Well Tempered...:D
 
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Little update:

I've been living with the Marantz (Clearaudio) T15S1 for a little bit now. I can say two things about it compared to the technics.

It's a pain in the butt, with the belt setup. The on/off switch is in a strange location, the belt needs to be changed over to a different pulley every time a change between 45 and 33. It takes forever to spin down. It gets dusty with no cover . .

BUT, the music on it is very clear. I have some newer vinyl that I was able to compare versus my Oppo 93 and the same albums on CD.

Besides the volume difference, once normalized the sound quality it's not a major difference, very subtle differences between the two. Which I guess is a good thing that this analog setup is capable of hanging with the digital Oppo!

I do prefer the Oppo / CD or even FLAC to the record . . . . BUT a lot of my vinyl I can not find the CD equivalent.

I haven't been able to get a Technics to test head to head (I put the one I purchased back safely in the box before using it).

So i'm still up in the air if this Marantz (Clearaudio) will stay or should I go for the easier push button layout, nice cover, but possibly lower audio quality of the technics I have waiting in the box, and just giving it a nice stylus to try to keep up with the Marantz. . .
 
If you have the SL-1200 you should try it. I think it sounds different than the Marantz, not better, not worse, but you just might prefer it. I, too, had the TT-15s1 and couldn't stand the configuration of the belt/on-off switch. The belt on mine was always falling off. It sounded good, though. I think the SL-1200 will have more bottom end if your Marantz and SL-1200 are like either of those that I had.
 
I have a new Clearaudio Emotion bought a week ago and an SL 1200 bought new a couple of years back set up to evaluate; The Clearaudio has the Concept v2 cartridge, upgraded main bearing and the Unify tonearm, while the Technics has an AT120E and is bog standard.

I spent a couple of evening doing comparisons, and, though I like the sound of the Technics, it can't compare with the Clearaudio for detail, bass extension (this was a surprise) and clarity; There's a sense of air missing with the Technics.

Taking Joni Mitchell's "Blue" as an example, it sounds nice through the Technics, but through the Clearaudio it is, at times, exceptional. You can hear her voice strainig in passages that sound smooth in the Technics. The piano and guitar both have have a more realistic feel to them. Full orchestra sounds again more complete, and more dramatic on things like the 1812 Symphony.

I also ran some tests courtesy of the HFN record and the PlatterSpeed App. Both tracked to track 8, but there was a hint of buzz on the Technics that there wasn't on the Clearaudio. Experimented with different settings, but, although I could minimise it, I could never get rid of it.

The speed test was interesting, but note it isn't the most complete of tests. The Technics performed much as expected, with speed variation of less than.05%. The Clearaudio result was interesting, in that the variation was less than 0.08%. I was expecting the result to be worse, since Clearaudio claim 0.2%, and assume it is the upgraded bearing that makes the difference. Also, the Clearaudio ran slightly fast throughout - we're talking < .03 % here - which might account for it sounding a touch more engaging than the Technics.

I would have liked to have tried the Technics with the Ortofon MC Super cartridge I have, but unfortunately it decided to collapse internally and produce only hum!

Of course this is entirely subjective, but in my system the Clearaudio was noticeably better, and I'll be selling the Technics. I suspect that the Unify arm, which is a couple of models up from the one that usually comes with the deck and is on the Marantz, makes a difference, as does the upgraded ceramic bearing. The whole cost me 1300€, which is 1000€ than the Technics. Whether the amount of improvement is worth the extra is up to the listener. It is for me.

P.S. Since I'm resurrecting an old one I also ran the same tests on a Lenco L75. Speed was exemplary, much in the Technics range, but the arm has problems. Track 6 was the only one it tracked cleanly (cartridge was AT 95E by the way), and no adjustment changed the level of buzzing on track 7, let alone 8. I haven't changed the V blocks yet, so we'll see.

Sorry for the long and boring details, by the way, I'll be copying it up to my website later, just wanted to get some ideas down and this seemed a good thread to do so.
 
The least effort that must be done if comparing TTs is to use the same cartridge. It´s not possible to extrapolate what is heard to the TT if using different ones.
Another important thing is that what TT is playing must not be known to the listener.
gusten
 
Too difficult to change cartridges quickly and remember the sound. Also, the AT 120E probably comes from the same stable as the base Clearaudio model. Unfortunately you'll find nearly every review, pro or otherwise, is like that. At least my reference system was the same.

It's also difficult for me to play my records and not know the music!
 
It was nice of you to take the time to do this and to share your impressions, but....

..Different cartridges on the two TTs? Sorry, but this is an essentially meaningless comparison. ..Even if you had the same cartridge mounted to each you would need to make your comparison "blinded" for your conclusions to be compelling to us objectivists.

By chance did you make digital recordings of each?
 
grottyash said:
Too difficult to change cartridges quickly and remember the sound. Also, the AT 120E probably comes from the same stable as the base Clearaudio model. Unfortunately you'll find nearly every review, pro or otherwise, is like that. At least my reference system was the same.

It's also difficult for me to play my records and not know the music!
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Yes I know that most reviews are not really reviews, we must understand the importance of them in the context of how they were done.
gusten
 
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