If VW deceived consumers about its diesel cars, then it has a huge problem

[Sam Cogley]

One of the reasons the EPA (and CARB) regulations became so detailed is that the automakers tried every trick they could think of to game the system - including less sophisticated versions of what VW pulled. If one thinks such regulations are unnecessary, just look at the photos of major US cities in 1970 vs. today. Or look at photos of Chinese megalopolises today. Long-term warming effects notwithstanding, the pollutants at issue here can have very nasty immediate impacts. Smog is not pleasant.

 

[whoaru99]

It makes me wonder if these cars will have a higher resale value then ones after this date . The pre DEF fluid Diesels trucks have a big resale value .

There's a big difference though. The pre-DEF trucks are compliant with emissions regs for their time, the VWs are not.

Seems to me VW likely has a fix that will satisy EPA; more or less turn off the "cheat mode". How that affects drivability and customer satisfaction is a different matter to deal with.

 

[whoaru99]

Except that apparently one of the EPA regulations explicitly bans such a device / setup.

Coupled with VW apparently already admitting doing as such.

 

[savatage1973]

I own a 2015 Chevrolet Silverado 3500HD "clean diesel". It has DEF (urea/water) injection and the DPF (diesel particulate filter). For a couple hundred bucks in mods I almost doubled the torque output of the engine and can reprogram the ECM via a tablet, laptop or even smartphone, basically "on the fly". I don't have to worry about emissions testing because of my GVWR, but I can reset it to stock in a matter of a minute.

I work construction, so a lot of us have diesels--some idiots want the "rolling coal" BS--which I don't agree with--I just want to run the engine efficiently and maximize towing/hauling capacity. If I see or smell "black smoke", that just means you are wasting fuel--and fuel is money from my perspective, and I'm not inclined to throw it away.

What VW is accused of is certainly "shady", to say the least, but what is ultimately better?--a slightly dirtier diesel getting 50 mpg or a conventional gas engine getting 25 mpg?

And trust me, I personally know at least a dozen (maybe more) people with gasoline vehicles that have "tuner" kits on them and the only day that they will pass emissions is the day they buy their inspection stickers.

With VW having multiple marques in their stable and a HUGE international market, they were just a target waiting to be hit.

 

[Beatnik]

I don't think the EPA is as much about mpg as the air we breath. If they/everyone circumvents these regulations then there's not point in having emissions testing at all. Why should some feel they need to follow the law and others feel they are above it ? Pet peeve thread time.

 

[Tom Brennan]

What VW is accused of is certainly "shady", to say the least, but what is ultimately better?--a slightly dirtier diesel getting 50 mpg or a conventional gas engine getting 25 mpg?

And trust me, I personally know at least a dozen (maybe more) people with gasoline vehicles that have "tuner" kits on them and the only day that they will pass emissions is the day they buy their inspection stickers.

What's ultimately better is a political question, in the meanwhile the law should be obeyed.

I think the government (and the auto companies) will be going after the tuners, the companies to protect themselves from guys harming motors while using aftermarket tunes and then trying to get them fixed under warrantee.

 

[whoaru99]

It's not too hard to tell who's been overfueling. People think they're tricky by "deprogramming" the ECM. Many ECMs keep notes, so to speak, who's been in there.

Even if that sort of thing is defeated, companies generally have a pretty good idea of what parts can take what stress. When things start breaking and material analysis confirms the correct material properties there aren't too many alternate theories beyond that point. It then becomes a matter if it's worth it for the company to actively pursue it. Or, review case by case, or just take a couple on the chin now and then because it's not worth tripping over dollars to pick up pennies.

 

[savatage1973]

What's ultimately better is a political question, in the meanwhile the law should be obeyed.

I think the government (and the auto companies) will be going after the tuners, the companies to protect themselves from guys harming motors while using aftermarket tunes and then trying to get them fixed under warrantee.

I don't see it so much as a political question, more of a mathematical calculation of CO2 and particulate emissions in total, although, there is a political bent to the entire issue that I don't want to get into.

And yes, the auto companies have been cracking down on the "tuners" if they try to get warranty work done. My GM warranty specifically states that if anything upstream of the DPF in the exhaust system is modified, the warranty is void. I can swap out the air filter and modify the exhaust downstream of the DPF, but anything in between can void the warranty.

 

[zebra03]

There's a big difference though. The pre-DEF trucks are compliant with emissions regs for their time, the VWs are not.

Seems to me VW likely has a fix that will satisy EPA; more or less turn off the "cheat mode". How that affects drivability and customer satisfaction is a different matter to deal with.

I guess my point was if the "fix" lessons the performance of these vehicles , then I think their resale value will be higher if they are not recalibrated . IMHO

 

[zebra03]

I own a 2015 Chevrolet Silverado 3500HD "clean diesel". It has DEF (urea/water) injection and the DPF (diesel particulate filter). For a couple hundred bucks in mods I almost doubled the torque output of the engine and can reprogram the ECM via a tablet, laptop or even smartphone, basically "on the fly". I don't have to worry about emissions testing because of my GVWR, but I can reset it to stock in a matter of a minute.

I work construction, so a lot of us have diesels--some idiots want the "rolling coal" BS--which I don't agree with--I just want to run the engine efficiently and maximize towing/hauling capacity. If I see or smell "black smoke", that just means you are wasting fuel--and fuel is money from my perspective, and I'm not inclined to throw it away.

What VW is accused of is certainly "shady", to say the least, but what is ultimately better?--a slightly dirtier diesel getting 50 mpg or a conventional gas engine getting 25 mpg?

And trust me, I personally know at least a dozen (maybe more) people with gasoline vehicles that have "tuner" kits on them and the only day that they will pass emissions is the day they buy their inspection stickers.

With VW having multiple marques in their stable and a HUGE international market, they were just a target waiting to be hit.

How did your mods change your MPG ?

 

[zebra03]

I don't think the EPA is as much about mpg as the air we breath. If they/everyone circumvents these regulations then there's not point in having emissions testing at all. Why should some feel they need to follow the law and others feel they are above it ? Pet peeve thread time.

The more MPG's , the less the emissions per mile . All things being the same .

 

[SoCal Sam]

One of the reasons the EPA (and CARB) regulations became so detailed is that the automakers tried every trick they could think of to game the system - including less sophisticated versions of what VW pulled. If one thinks such regulations are unnecessary, just look at the photos of major US cities in 1970 vs. today. Or look at photos of Chinese megalopolises today. Long-term warming effects notwithstanding, the pollutants at issue here can have very nasty immediate impacts. Smog is not pleasant.

I just smogged my vehicle. The irony of these stringent regs is that for newer cars, dyno and sniffer are no longer part of the test. It is simply an ECM / PCM check now.

 

[whoaru99]

The more MPG's , the less the emissions per mile . All things being the same .

Maybe, maybe not. There are many aspects to emissions.

In a diesel, more mpg could come from higher combustion temperatures. That typically lowers particulates but raises NOx.

 

[mhardy6647]

The energy density of Diesel fuel is higher than gasoline, and the higher combustion enhances the efficiency of combustion (oxidation of hydrocarbons to CO2).

One problem, as I understand it, with Diesels is the production of, e.g., oxides of nitrogen (NOx) which are pollutants in their own right (components of so-called photochemical smog) Managing emissions is walking a tightrope between one class of pollutants (unburned or partially oxidized hydrocarbons and carbon monoxiide) vs. another (oxidized species such as NO and NO2).

 

[Beatnik]

There's a reason we have an EPA and emissions regulations here.

It’s easy to see some of Delhi’s biggest pollutants with the naked eye. The city adds 1,400 cars each year to its already clogged streets. Hybrids and electrics are almost nonexistent. While the city converted many of its autos and buses to CNG, or clean natural gas, the assault of newly added diesel-burning cars has almost erased any signs of progress.

https://nextcity.org/features/view/south-asia-india-air-pollution-clean-air-solutions-delhi

 

[whoaru99]

The energy density of Diesel fuel is higher than gasoline, and the higher combustion enhances the efficiency of combustion (oxidation of hydrocarbons to CO2).

One problem, as I understand it, with Diesels is the production of, e.g., oxides of nitrogen (NOx) which are pollutants in their own right (components of so-called photochemical smog) Managing emissions is walking a tightrope between one class of pollutants (unburned or partially oxidized hydrocarbons and carbon monoxiide) vs. another (oxidized species such as NO and NO2).

Hence why DEF is one strategy to emissions control. Raise combustion temps to gain efficiency and reduce particulates, then inject DEF wherein the ammonia component reacts with the exhaust NOx in the catalyst to reduce to nitrogen and water.

 

[savatage1973]

Well, you cannot trade that truck into a dealer. If you do, you will get an automatic 50K fine for messing with the smog devices. GJ there....

I live in a rural area, and if I take that truck back tomorrow, I can trade it on another as long as it has a current inspection sticker and valid registration/plates, whether I tune it back down or let it run hard.

 

[Shadowdog]

Interesting soln's to air pollution cleanup in India! Thanks!

A lot of mine workers here have worked in diesel fumes for
quite a few years now ( the 80's here for sure) when the ore
transport system changed from electric hoists and trains
to declines with special low profile diesel trucks running steady.
Of course they are used for other underground work and
transporting workers.

I went down in a mine decline in a new
mine not long after it opened in the mid 80's and found the air
was full of soot and a strong burned diesel smell. There is of
course a strong ventilation system pumping air down below
which your met with as a strong breeze walking down. The
scrubbers put on the exhaust must have helped some.

Carbon filters with very fine filter masks were and are available
and seemed to result in breathing clean air. The outer filters would get
black quickly I found working around diesel loaders in a garage
in another part of the company and I found they had to be changed
every day. I imagine it's gotten cleaner in those places now with
the cleaner engines and hopefully people wore their masks as
recently it's become very knowledgeable the damage to the lungs
it causes.


Europe had lesser pollution reg's for Diesels, though that
has changed recently with the realization of the harm the very
small particles cause.

They say in here that gas engines are going to need more after
treatment as they become more diesel like.
Looks like London,UK hasn't gotten any better than 84 when I visited due to the increase
in Diesel use as the fuel is much cheaper.

http://www.hybridcars.com/will-america-avoid-europes-clean-diesel-problems/

 

[savatage1973]

And not to be a total d-bag (which I am)--try towing 28,000 lbs with your Prius and call me when I need to give you a ride.

 

[Pio1980]

And not to be a total d-bag (which I am)--try towing 28,000 lbs with your Prius and call me when I need to give you a ride.

So that somehow justifies driving it alone every day as local transport?
Seriously, if I needed a heavy truck for frequent use, I'd have something else as well far more economical for a daily driver.

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