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IMF ALS 30 filter issues? Help needed!

Martinvb

Member
Hi all! A few weeks ago I purchased a set of 2 IMF ALS 30 speakers, that needed some attention: tweeters were not working and both mids needed a refoam. Nothing special: I already worked on ALS 40s, Compact IIs and Super Compacts in the past so I am aware of their sound and the issues you may have with these IMF speakers after 40-50 years. I was able to repair one tweeter, but as I was not happy with the sound it produced, I decided to replace both HD100D25 tweeters with new, technically identical Audax TW0-25A0 (also sold by Falcon for this purpose). Caps in the filters were 25-30% off spec, so I swapped the Elcaps with Jantzen Elecaps to the nearest available value (6uF with 5.7 / 30uF with 27). One sub (lowest) driver had to be recentered. Mids were refoamed and seemed OK after this procedure: so far so good. Still, after I carefully reassembled the units (made photographs to make sure that I would not mix up the colour coding of the speaker wies) and did some critical listening, the result was very unexpected. There is an awfull overrepresentation of mid/high frequencies, that also seem to be somewhat distorted (particularly when listening to female voices). The sound was quite harsh and fatigueing. I did some basis frequency response tests in REW, which showed a kind of U-shaped curve (see screenshot). The distortion plot shows a peak around 2.6KHz (which is in the mid driver range), but I am not really sure how to interpret these graphs correctly. Anyway, it seems like this is not the original sound, so something is going on here.

I tried to find the schematics of the filter (it says on the PCB that the MK2 version of the ALS40 was used, but layout is totally different from the ALS40s that I serviced earlier), but no luck so far. One photo contains pictures of the physical layout of the filters and the components that were used (please note that they show the Elecaps, not the original Elcaps): I hope this may be of help to other AK members some day. All components were checked and seem OK (although I could only measure the value of the inductors). There doesn't seem to be any trace damage on the PCB either.

So what to do next? Not sure of REW measurement of individual drivers will give much extra information. I expected the sound of the ALS30 to be not far ook that from the ALS40, which I know well and am quite fond of. Perhaps the mids did not come out right from the refoam procedure? Any advice that would help shed some light on this issue would be much appreciated. Meanwhile I have hooked up my IMF Compact IIs again, which I so far still prefer over all larger models the IMF family (given my ears and listening space). Many thanks for your opinion, and happy listening!

BW, Martin
 

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Looks like your mid range drivers are not rolling off when they should. Crossover is at 3.5Khz but the tweeter will roll in before that even on a steep crossover slope which I'm guessing it isn't.

Inductors don't usually go bad, but maybe that has happened here? If the inductor isn't working, the midrange will carry on into breakup.

Worth checking at least.
 
Looks like your mid range drivers are not rolling off when they should. Crossover is at 3.5Khz but the tweeter will roll in before that even on a steep crossover slope which I'm guessing it isn't.

Inductors don't usually go bad, but maybe that has happened here? If the inductor isn't working, the midrange will carry on into breakup.

Worth checking at least.
Thanks for your answer. That makes sense, but like you say inductors tend to remain OK. Would be nice to find out if the measured values of the inductors still are within spec. So far I could not find any proper documentation about the filters. 2 inductors are marked with a pink and 2 with a blue sticker. Inductors of the same colour have almost exactly the same measured value.
 
Could be a problem with the traces on the boards? I'd be tempted to construct entirely new crossovers, hard wired on a piece of board.

That's what my TLS50s needed. Quite a big job, ended up never tackling it and gave the speakers away to someone who was much keener than me.
 
Thanks! Also a possibility indeed; these boards are rather flimsy. Breaks are not readily visible, but may still be present. Maybe I will try to reflow all traces. On the other hand, both speakers have the same issue so damage to the traces should be almost identical. What I will do when I am back from travel is put the mid of one of my ALS40’s in one of the ALS30’s, to exclude the possibility that these might be the culprit.
 
BTW, sorry to hear about your TLS80’s. I am very curious about this model, but prices for a good set of these classics have gone up lately (at least in the NL).
Could be a problem with the traces on the boards? I'd be tempted to construct entirely new crossovers, hard wired on a piece of board.

That's what my TLS50s needed. Quite a big job, ended up never tackling it and gave the speakers away to someone who was much keener than me.
,
 
BTW, sorry to hear about your TLS80’s. I am very curious about this model, but prices for a good set of these classics have gone up lately (at least in the NL).

,
I paid £300 maybe ten years ago. 50s, not 80s. Previous owner had sorted the drivers but not the crossovers. I bought all the parts but never got to it. They still worked but were a bit too dull sounding.

I don't know what they are selling for now but they were taking up too much space in the living room (upstairs rooms are already full up :D) so rather than mess about selling them I just offered them free to a dedicated IMF fan - even though it was a five hundred mile round trip for him to come and collect them he was there within 15 hours of me offering them to him!

Properly sorted I suspect they'd be very good.
 
@Mart Mccall Made some progress since last post. Both new tweeter coils and new Audax replacement tweeters produced the same issue: harsh reproduction in mid to high frequency range. Filter was tested with oscilloscope and Rew and seemed to work properly. I decided to experiment with reducing the sensitivity of the tweeter with 4 dB after I read somewhere about a 3-4 dB sensitivity difference between the original IMF tweeter and the new Audax replacement. I made an L-pad of 1.5 Ohm in series and 6 Ohm (parallel) over the tweeter poles, using 10 Watt wire wound resistors, which immediately improved the sound in the right direction: better defined mids and attenuated high frequencies. There seems to be a redistribution of energy that went to the tweeter now going to the other drivers, which produces a far better balanced sound than before. Particularly the muddled mids are now much cleaner and I can better understand now how these units may have sounded in their original state: they have the same audible footprint as the ALS40 and the Super Compacts. Happy with the result so far.
 
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I have the exact same issue with my als30s. I reveenered them and recapped the crossovers with mundorf e-caps. All in the same values and I now have very pronounced treble and mids with a tad of distortion.All drivers in my are original and have als40 mkii stamped on the crossovers?! They look factory installed. Not happy with the sound of them so I have parked them up.
 
I have the exact same issue with my als30s. I reveenered them and recapped the crossovers with mundorf e-caps. All in the same values and I now have very pronounced treble and mids with a tad of distortion.All drivers in my are original and have als40 mkii stamped on the crossovers?! They look factory installed. Not happy with the sound of them so I have parked them up.
Thanks for chiming in. That is weird, this would point at the filters as cause of the problem. Were you able to listen to the speakers before the recap, and if so, was the sound better than after?
 
they definitely sound worse after the recap as I don’t recall them being so pronounced. They definitely need a crossover tweek. They are 1 of 2 speakers that have sounded worse after a recap and the other pair were some tdl rtl4. Let me know if you end up the taming the top end. It’s like they need taking down 2-3db to match the output of the bass drivers.
 
they definitely sound worse after the recap as I don’t recall them being so pronounced. They definitely need a crossover tweek. They are 1 of 2 speakers that have sounded worse after a recap and the other pair were some tdl rtl4. Let me know if you end up the taming the top end. It’s like they need taking down 2-3db to match the output of the bass drivers.
I ended up making a L-pad circuit to reduce the tweeter output by 4dB, which seemed to do the trick for the frequency response. Still, I am not a big fan of the ALS30, certainly not when compared to the ALS40.
 
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