You know I perfer older speakers and have since they went to small driver in tower boxes in the erley 80s. They tend to be far to thin in sound for me unless you went to the huge offerings from someone like JBL.
IMF transmission line alternatives?
- Thread starter timkk
- Start date
You know I perfer older speakers and have since they went to small driver in tower boxes in the erley 80s. They tend to be far to thin in sound for me unless you went to the huge offerings from someone like JBL.
JimPA
Distinguished Member
I pointed out in my previous posts any of the Fried T-lines that use more modern high performance drivers.
Unfortunately about the only way to acquire a pair is to build clones using substitute cone drivers.
Yeah, I looked at those, they're really interesting and would like to hear them. Completely flat from below 20hz (at least for the bass driver). Is there anyone who builds clones and sells them?
I'm looking for speakers that will outperform IMF's reference range at similar pricepoint level(vintage, used or new).
As stated above I like the L250s over my reference IMF's
The IMF's cost me 1500 fully restored.
The L250's I bought stock, refinished them and refoamed the woofer. Nothing to the Xover yet. I have about 1500 in these.
Let me ask you this what is the rest of your system? What kind of amps and power are you working with, size of room and so forth.
JimPA
Distinguished Member
Yeah, I looked at those, they're really interesting and would like to hear them. Completely flat from below 20hz (at least for the bass driver). Is there anyone who builds clones and sells them?
I have built a few pairs for myself and friends.
keilau
AK Member
I am not sure what this design really is. The product discription does not give any details on the enclosure and stuffing design. There is no simple performance information as a frequency response curve. It is suspect when they call it a "time aligned" transmission line. A transmission line enclosure is non-resonant in nature which is not conductive to any frequency tuning or time alignment.
BillWojo
Addicted Member
If your interested in transmission line speakers have you looked at the DCM TimeFrames? I picked up a set of both the TF400's and the TF600's. They can be had fairly cheap if you look around and really sound great. I don't know near as much as you guys so maybe these speakers your talking about are on a whole nother level. Just wanted to let you know about them.
BillWojo
BillWojo
The man says it's a TL, I'll take him at his word. I know it has the deepest and most powerful bass I've heard from a 6.5" woofer, no matter what type of box used.
Anyway, I'm not hear to defend Van L. If you like the speaker fine, if you don't that's swell.
Interesting.
I have heard good and bad examples of both TL and BR, along with sealed boxes, and leaky/ aperiodic/ boxes.
Not only that but the way each reacts to your listening room.
I agree on the ringing effect on BR, but some designs seem to minimize the effect, and produce amazingly tight and deep bass.
Some sealed designs have a way of "pressurizing" the listening room that can be good or bad, depending on your perspective.
The best current TL speaker I have hear lately was the Silent Speaker II, amazing bass, and when set up right pretty much disappear.
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canuckaudiog
On a quest for high fidelity
YMMV, that's for sure. When I run mine without my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 (which corrects bass response below 150Hz) I find my IMFs to sound far too bass heavy. I'm not sure what's up with yours, but it sounds like something is amiss (are they wired in phase? and not just the speakers, but the bass drivers as they were pulled out and sent out for repairs.. maybe they weren't wired up correctly). It seems very strange that you find them lacking in bass, as all accounts of the Mk IV are anything but that. I certainly don't find that with mine, although mine aren't the "Improved" model.
As far as better than the IMFs, I'm not really sure I get your question. Are you seeking something like the IMFs, but just can't get a pair in your area? The logical answer to me sounds like "just buy a pair of IMFs and be done with it" but that doesn't seem like the way you are trying to go.
TL bass is certainly unique, but the openness and transparency of the bass can be found in a lot of other designs. There is no best design - TL, bass reflex, sealed.. they all have their own challenges and pros and cons. My advice is if the bass is of a big concern to you, make sure you listen intently before you buy any speakers. Then you will know what you are getting.
Also it's worth noting that bass is the most difficult area of the spectrum acoustically-speaking. If you want correct, flat and balanced bass, you are going to have to deal with the room or at least employ some sort of advanced DSP/EQ (like what I have done with my DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0). Once you hear properly EQ'd bass, you won't really need to worry too much about the bass loading. A properly designed speaker will sound very nice in the lower registers once it is corrected acoustically.
c-atle-79bay
Super Member
You know, there are these; http://www.friedproducts.com/ . Might demo them someday, have some local to me. It also has the Hiquphon OW2F tweeter. IME limited at that, I have found the Hiquphon tweeters to be some of the most wide open and spaciatios tweeters I have ever heard. When I listened to them the first time, was on some LINN Nexus Ls250's and was amazed, and I had just unplugged carver amazings, which led to all 6" of them going bye-bye.
What I meant is something with flatter and better frequency response... how speakers sound is a really subjective matter but you can't argue with those graphs! So it's my starting point...
These are "just" 35hz - 20khz...IMFs goes down to low 20s. This is what I'm talking about.... overpriced modern speakers. Even though, they may sound "better" to some people, it would be very hard to prove with IMFs next to them that go down to 20hz imho.
Sealed enclosures roll off at 12 dB/octave.
Bass reflex enclosures roll off at 24 dB/octave.
Transmission line enclosures roll off at 24 dB/octave but the transition from the pass band to the final roll off is more gradual and rounded due to the damping provided by the stuffing.
Transmission lines and bass reflex boxes have more in common than differences if you test them both without the stuffing. The stuffing in a TL is what sets the bass response apart from a bass reflex enclosure.
There are good and bad examples of all three styles of these speaker enclosures.
canuckaudiog
On a quest for high fidelity
Bass extension has absolutely nothing to do with quality of bass, or the quality of the loudspeaker.
Also, no IMF goes down to 20Hz. My Mk IVs certainly don't. They play deep, deeper than most speakers I've had, but they do not hit 20Hz (and this is by measurement, not just listening). The "17Hz to audibility" spec is misleading at best.
IMHO, you want a speaker with extension down to around 40Hz, because that is where the bass ends in 95% of music. Unless you are into church pipe organs or something like that, you aren't going to miss the last octave. Then again, I don't know why you want that 20Hz specification. But, I think it's not a very logical approach to finding a satisfying speaker.
Silent Speakers
http://www.stereophile.com/content/direct-acoustics-silent-speaker-ii
As the review pointed out they need a good amp to drive them.
My friend who has them uses a H/K PA2400 with great results.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/direct-acoustics-silent-speaker-ii
As the review pointed out they need a good amp to drive them.
My friend who has them uses a H/K PA2400 with great results.
IMF SACM?...
Yes, while I agree they don't go down as low as they claim I also don't belive today's speakers are anywhere near claimed response. Actually, I'd say they cheat on the specs even more than back in the day... as with everything else. These IMF's are pretty flat from 30hz as per this graph: http://lh3.ggpht.com/_z8y2HWwyn58/SgM_QeZWiCI/AAAAAAAAAzI/CmeXj_7PkVQ/s800/rspmmkivgraph2c.jpg
Bud fried tower for mentioned ealier which is 3.5k$ starts from 35hz and it's just a claim on a website. I couldn't find any tests done so I believe that in reality is worse.
Also I love TL bass quality over BR, but that's just a matter of taste I guess?
canuckaudiog
On a quest for high fidelity
Nope, not even the SACM
Well as you can likely tell, I am an IMF guy myself so I certainly understand where you are coming from. 30Hz would be more accurate.
Keep in mind however that the Mk IV was around $2500 - $3000 USD new in 1977, which in today's dollars is roughly $8000-$10000. To be able to buy a speaker new for $3500 and compete with a speaker that in terms of manufacturing cost that is about a third of the speaker's cost it is being compared to, is in my opinion, a huge bargain.
I guess in terms of suggestions look at TDL speakers as well, since they are made by the same designer as IMF and are of a slimmer profile with a smaller footprint.
PMC would also be on my short list.
Otherwise, TLs are hard to come by. Most people into TLs are DIYers and build their own. If that were the way I wanted to go, I would likely follow Martin King's model.
Indeed, if you do go DIY you can certainly exceed the performance of an IMF speaker and for not a lot of money, granted you can build enclosures and are prepared to put together a speaker.
Otherwise, like I said TDL or IMF would be your best bet.
Well as you can likely tell, I am an IMF guy myself so I certainly understand where you are coming from. 30Hz would be more accurate.
Keep in mind however that the Mk IV was around $2500 - $3000 USD new in 1977, which in today's dollars is roughly $8000-$10000. To be able to buy a speaker new for $3500 and compete with a speaker that in terms of manufacturing cost that is about a third of the speaker's cost it is being compared to, is in my opinion, a huge bargain.
I guess in terms of suggestions look at TDL speakers as well, since they are made by the same designer as IMF and are of a slimmer profile with a smaller footprint.
PMC would also be on my short list.
Otherwise, TLs are hard to come by. Most people into TLs are DIYers and build their own. If that were the way I wanted to go, I would likely follow Martin King's model.
Indeed, if you do go DIY you can certainly exceed the performance of an IMF speaker and for not a lot of money, granted you can build enclosures and are prepared to put together a speaker.
Otherwise, like I said TDL or IMF would be your best bet.