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Inexpensive phono pre-amps

T

tommieboy

New Member
I noticed that when I use different cartridges (although using the same stereo receiver and TT) the ones with 'lower' mv outputs need to have more 'volume knob' applied to achieve the same listening level. It is not a MAJOR variation--but I DO notice a difference. I run all MM/MI carts.....NEVER a MC, because of their miniscule "mv" outputs. I would like to someday try a a MC cart. But I know nothing about preamps.
Someone told me that preamps are only used on systems that have NO 'phono' input on the main amp/receiver--and it is a terrible practice to run TWO preamps in series...i.e.the external booster amp, + the one that's already handling preamp duties to your phono jacks inside the receiver. Running 'two' causes the signal to be distorted, and WORSE than just using one. That you are better off just using the preamp already in your receiver. Do most receiver preamps have the ability to boost a MC signal enough to actually hear music--without cranking your vol. up to 7/8 of its capacity?? I need some guidance, and also, (if it IS possible to use another preamp...) what would be a competent, affordable, one to get?
 
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When I was a kid most people just used the phono pres in their amplifiers. I don't remember anyone, except my father, using a separate phono pre. I don't remember anyone complaining about level problems, either. I didn't have problems in any of my systems. My Dad used separate phono pres because he used power amps in his sound system; inputs were all line-level.

If you decide to use a separate phono pre, just remember to plug it into a line-level input on your receiver. If you want to adjust input gain levels, look for a phono pre with integrated gain control.
 
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Follow up questions.....can most receivers properly amplify the tiny mv signals from MC cartridges? Also, using "line-level" inputs along with a separate external preamp; do you mean "anything other than the phono jacks?" (Aux; tape, CD, etc....?)
 
Question 1: It's unlikely that you'd find a receiver that could do the job. Count on purchasing a separate preamp or transformer to get the proper signal level out of an MC cartridge.
Question 2: Yes.
 
I will just add that the other issue with running a phono preamp into another phono preamp is that phono preamps do not only amplify the signal, they apply the RIAA eq curve. Due to physical challenges presented by vinyl, the groves often have the lows dampened and the highs bosted. The Phono preamp applies the reverse EQ (boosting lows and dampening highs) to produce the correct sound. Having two phono preamps will apply that curve twice overshooting the desired effect.
 
Most receiver phono preamp sections are MM only. Some higher end line preamps and integrated amps from the late 70's or early 80's have MC-capable phono inputs. They will be labeled - either a different pair of jacks, or a knob or switch setting. MC phono preamps are difficult to do well, and cheap stand-alone phono preamps usually don't. Many inexpensive phono preamps have perfectly good MM sections, but are noisy and lower fidelity when running a MC. When you are ready to try a low-output MC cartridge, using a step-up transformer into a MM input will usually beat a cheap MC section handily for sound quality.
 
A wide variety of phono preamps are made, from the budget jobs for people with contemporary electronics who just want to play records, to the $50K ones that you use with your $12K cartridge.

First, you have to decide what you propose to do. An inexpensive MC cartridge that puts out .6 mV is an entirely different animal than a super high-end cartridge that costs thousands of dollars and puts out .15 mV.

Once you've zeroed in on that, you can look at the appropriate types of phone stages for your system. You can calculate how much gain you need, and look at what loading options will suit your cartridge. Most of the run-of-the-mill inexpensive MC carts will work OK with about 60 dB of gain and a load of 300-500 ohms. Several popular preamps in the $300-800 range would be suitable for such a cartridge, and you would want to look at features and sound quality.
 
judsonw said:
I will just add that the other issue with running a phono preamp into another phono preamp is that phono preamps do not only amplify the signal, they apply the RIAA eq curve. Due to physical challenges presented by vinyl, the groves often have the lows dampened and the highs bosted. The Phono preamp applies the reverse EQ (boosting lows and dampening highs) to produce the correct sound. Having two phono preamps will apply that curve twice overshooting the desired effect.
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See that? I KNEW there was a reason why running two preamps in series was a BAD IDEA....I just didn't know what it was! Your eloquent explanation cleared that up for me--thank you for your input! I thank ALL of you for helping to educate me on this stuff. Now that I'm retired, I can't afford the 'audiophile' high-end gear that you guys are familiar with....(That's why I don't own a single MC cartridge!) I did get one for FREE on a TT acquisition awhile ago--but the stylus for it isn't made anymore, and isn't available at ANY price But now I have two more questions.....1) What is the difference between the preamps the link talked about--the U-Turn & the Schiit Mani--and a run-of-the-mill "step up transformer'?? And, 2) can I run the step-up into my phono jacks, or does that have to go into a 'line-level' input, the way another preamp would? I just wanna impress the grandkids with 'how nice' Pap's albums sound, compared to 'mummie's Iphone!"
 
tommieboy said:
But now I have two more questions.....1) What is the difference between the preamps the link talked about--the U-Turn & the Schiit Mani--and a run-of-the-mill "step up transformer'??

And, 2) can I run the step-up into my phono jacks, or does that have to go into a 'line-level' input, the way another preamp would?

I just wanna impress the grandkids with 'how nice' Pap's albums sound, compared to 'mummie's Iphone!"
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Generally the output of the lomc cartridges are below 0.5 mV and the SUT (Step Up Transformer) are used to boost the low out put to a level similar to the mm cartridge level.

Most mm cartridges are in the 3.0 to 5.0 mV level.

You can use the SUT to boost the mm (3.0 to 5.0 mV ) to an even higher level, but you will soon be tire of the distorted end result.

You may even damage the mm phono section.

Proceed with caution, do it at your pleasure. :dunno:
 
MC is worth the extra expense to me IMO - however there are many good MM carts that I simply havent heard.

I was unsure about whether I wanted to invest in a transformer for my Denon DL-103 MC cart - so I got the Boozehound pre-preamp instead (no affiliation):

http://diyaudioprojects.com/Solid/JFET-MC-Pre-Preamp-Kit/

I really like it - it runs into the MM stage of my Accuphase C200 preamp. I do get a little bit of hum but its not very loud and the enjoyment factor of this lively little pre-pre-amp makes up for that.

I would like to be able to afford a transformer for MC-MM one day. There will be many people who tell you something may be "bad practice" or a transformer is better than an active head-amp (or vice versa) but in the end its best to try things out for yourself.
 
There are so many TOTL phono preamps and receivers out there, to include those that accommodate both MM and MC. Early nineties TOTL equipment have great internal phono stages to include the once upon a time most expensive AVR’s that pulled double duty also as two channel stereo units with the surround sound processor turned off and “Direct” turned on. During the seventies, most the people I knew only bought the most expensive models that came with great phono stages at a time when most people were using the DL-103 and no one had a problem with volume. The better TOTL units will have the internal phono stage match the rest of the electronics....
 
Second vote for the Mani. Cost to performance is hard to beat.

Don't discard MI carts. Some vintage ones are out there that can deliver, IMHO, better balanced sound that most MM. Also you may want to look at Nagaoka MP 110 or 150, or even possibly MP 200. Moving Permalloy hence MP.

I don't think you would be disappointed with something like an MP 150 or an Empire 2000Z(I'm very partial to this cart running through a Mani. Balanced sound & detail from low tight bass to clear detailed highs that don't make me grind my teeth)
 
It’s perfectly natural for a lower mV cart to require more volume on the receiver. It’s also perfectly natural to turn the receiver up more for vinyl than a digital source.

If you want more gain, buy an ART phono preamp. They’re $50 ($80 for the USB model) and have a gain knob.
 
Some great posts in this thread with solid advice!

The Mani is very popular, although it likely sounds no better than the cheaper U-Turn Pluto, which I have and believe to be a great bargain. The Mani trumps the Pluto in versatility and is made by a very popular company with a cult following, so is definitely worth a look. Ranf1970's post above linking to Fremer's blind poll about the two is worth a read IMO.

The ART is another one I have (in a box right now) and it is a great bargain too, and adds gain and a switchable rumble filter. I don't like the sound as much as the Pluto, but it's a great deal.
 
DavidTT, looking at that blind poll with the Pluto & Mani is a great idea for the OP. I did it before purchasing either one and ended up liking the Mani and it's superior low end bass performance (in my opinion) although it was noted in the poll I believe about the differences with low end.

Tomiboy; I do like the versatility with the Mani for multiple gain choices and ability to handle both MM & MC. I've said this a few times; the best thing I ever did to improve overall sound quality/experience of my vinyl was to pick up a Mani. Using it over any of my receivers or integrated amps with phono inputs always made a big difference.

Something like the Mani that has a few gain choices will help out when you have carts of different mV outputs or even if you use MC. I noticed the best performance at 42dB gain for my setup. I believe they have 30,42,48 and 59dB choices to suit a wide variety of cart outputs.

In the past, I was chasing around various carts and TTs, the set up, speakers and placement, and amps to improve my enjoyment. I stopped once I picked up a Mani. Turns out that my headphones, speakers, carts, and TTs all were quite capable and I didn't need to keep chasing my tail for a better set up.

A decent preamp can help point out bad choices, a worn stylus, or a bad set up. Best advice I can give is, I would start with a decent preamp over anything and go from there.

Let us know how it goes and what choices you have made.

DR
 
Great post.

desertrat748 said:
DavidTT, looking at that blind poll with the Pluto & Mani is a great idea for the OP. I did it before purchasing either one and ended up liking the Mani and it's superior low end bass performance (in my opinion) although it was noted in the poll I believe about the differences with low end.

Tomiboy; I do like the versatility with the Mani for multiple gain choices and ability to handle both MM & MC. I've said this a few times; the best thing I ever did to improve overall sound quality/experience of my vinyl was to pick up a Mani. Using it over any of my receivers or integrated amps with phono inputs always made a big difference.

Something like the Mani that has a few gain choices will help out when you have carts of different mV outputs or even if you use MC. I noticed the best performance at 42dB gain for my setup. I believe they have 30,42,48 and 59dB choices to suit a wide variety of cart outputs.

In the past, I was chasing around various carts and TTs, the set up, speakers and placement, and amps to improve my enjoyment. I stopped once I picked up a Mani. Turns out that my headphones, speakers, carts, and TTs all were quite capable and I didn't need to keep chasing my tail for a better set up.

A decent preamp can help point out bad choices, a worn stylus, or a bad set up. Best advice I can give is, I would start with a decent preamp over anything and go from there.

Let us know how it goes and what choices you have made.

DR
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..and while you’re eyeballing the Mani, also have a look at Schiit’s Saga. Now that I’ve tried a couple different tubes in it, I’m liking it even more than I did at first.
Only thing I haven’t liked about Schiit so far, was actually dealing with them for repairs.. Maybe I’m too old or just old fashioned, but I think their customer service is poo-poo.
 
MisterDK said:
..and while you’re eyeballing the Mani, also have a look at Schiit’s Saga. Now that I’ve tried a couple different tubes in it, I’m liking it even more than I did at first.
Only thing I haven’t liked about Schiit so far, was actually dealing with them for repairs.. Maybe I’m too old or just old fashioned, but I think their customer service is poo-poo.
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Not to hijack the thread but what does the saga do?
 
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