Infinity’s and power

[ASH556]

I’ve got a pair of QE’s in my office and a pair of QB’s at home. The QE’s are usually paired with a JVC R-S7 (50 WPC). The QE/JVC setup was my folks’; bought new in ‘79.

The JVC is currently out for repair as the tuner went out.

At home I’ve been driving the QB’s with a Yamaha CR-420 (25 WPC), but I pulled it into the office Yesterday while the JVC is out for repair. The QE’s sound pretty different by the Yamaha vs the JVC. It’s a good sound, probably a little brighter and clearer than the JVC, but also lacking in the bottom end. The JVC pushes lows through the 8” QE’s better than the Yamaha does. The Yamaha is tight and punchy whereas the JVC would coax a little more tone out of the low end. I do have the loudness on the Yamaha dialed low, so trying help it out a little. Bass and treble are flat.

I’ve read that the Inifinity’s “like power” and I’m wondering how much of the difference I’m hearing is Yamaha vs JVC and how much is 50 WPC vs 25 WPC.

The JVC will go back with the QE’s for nostalgia’s sake, but the question is whether to replace the CR-420 driving the QB’s with a bigger Yamaha (I dig the aesthetics and have a YP-211 TT that matches), or something totally different.

If it is about size/watts, how much is enough to make a difference at lower volumes? Is a CR-820 at 45 WPC different enough or does it have to be a 1020?

 

[Dan13105]

Since the difference in volume between 25W and 50 W is only 3Db, I'd guess that most of what you're hearing is the difference in the overall voicing or sound of the 2 different receivers.

 

[Akustic]

It's a power difference that you're hearing.

It's not just about loudness and decibels, but about peak power capability and dynamics .. transient capabilities ..
Especially in the bass which is what requires most of the power for accurate reproduction .. treble requires very little power ..

The bass is there with a low power receiver but it lacks presence, snap, and definition .. (and 25wpc is pretty much an ultra-low power receiver)

Noticed it many many times over the years especially with receivers ..
Pretty much all receivers skimp on the power supply compared to separates or even the better high current integrateds ..
Good power supplies are expensive .. the manufacturers skimp them to add other features ..

It isn't just the Infinity's that like power ... all speakers like power.
Don't know but your Infinity's may be on the inefficient side of the efficiency curve.

 

[Retro_Pete]

A muddy distorted bass due to clipping is often perceived as louder due to the harmonics that present themselves under these circumstances. The distortion in bass is not heard as distortion but as a meatier sound. Our ears are not very perceptible with low frequencies.

The difference you hear is probably that. As @Akustic also wrote.

 

[tarior]

It's the receiver, IME. Your JVC is a snappy, punchy 50wpc unit, while the Yamaha is a very soft, thin sounding receiver. All of the Yamaha receivers in that line sound pretty thin and weak, IMO, and IME. Though to be fair, I have never had a CR-3020.

 

[Retro_Pete]

It's the receiver, IME. Your JVC is a snappy, punchy 50wpc unit, while the Yamaha is a very soft, thin sounding receiver. All of the Yamaha receivers in that line sound pretty thin and weak, IMO, and IME. Though to be fair, I have never had a CR-3020.

It makes no sense why it should sound thin.
It's a class a/b with BJT's and the design is used in the M-4 as well. Which I know is completely flat measuring in all loads with inaudible THD and noise. The "Yamaha sound" is an audiophile myth.

 

[mcgjohn]

I’ve got a pair of QE’s in my office and a pair of QB’s at home. The QE’s are usually paired with a JVC R-S7 (50 WPC). The QE/JVC setup was my folks’; bought new in ‘79.

The JVC is currently out for repair as the tuner went out.

At home I’ve been driving the QB’s with a Yamaha CR-420 (25 WPC), but I pulled it into the office Yesterday while the JVC is out for repair. The QE’s sound pretty different by the Yamaha vs the JVC. It’s a good sound, probably a little brighter and clearer than the JVC, but also lacking in the bottom end. The JVC pushes lows through the 8” QE’s better than the Yamaha does. The Yamaha is tight and punchy whereas the JVC would coax a little more tone out of the low end. I do have the loudness on the Yamaha dialed low, so trying help it out a little. Bass and treble are flat.

I’ve read that the Inifinity’s “like power” and I’m wondering how much of the difference I’m hearing is Yamaha vs JVC and how much is 50 WPC vs 25 WPC.

The JVC will go back with the QE’s for nostalgia’s sake, but the question is whether to replace the CR-420 driving the QB’s with a bigger Yamaha (I dig the aesthetics and have a YP-211 TT that matches), or something totally different.

If it is about size/watts, how much is enough to make a difference at lower volumes? Is a CR-820 at 45 WPC different enough or does it have to be a 1020?

Many times when someone says a speaker likes power what they really mean is current. Some speakers sound much better with high current output.

 

[Retro_Pete]

Many times when someone says a speaker likes power what they really mean is current. Some speakers sound much better with high current output.

Which is power. At whatever volume level,(SPL) you like.
Voltage is signal strength but only when the current expected is supplied.

 

[hopeless]

It makes no sense why it should sound thin.
It's a class a/b with BJT's and the design is used in the M-4 as well. Which I know is completely flat measuring in all loads with inaudible THD and noise. The "Yamaha sound" is an audiophile myth.

There is a bit to unpack here. People have a tendency to read a spec sheets like the information really gives you meaningful information.

First, there is a massive difference in sound between an entry level receiver and a TOTL amplifier from the same line. Fewer compromises were made in the designs. The little 420 was designed on a tight budget, the M4, a much bigger one. Different choices could be made. You aren't getting more of the same, you are getting more better.

Yamaha has had at least three different "house" sounds over the years. The "original" sound, the ultra thin sound of the 90s, then their post 2000 return closer to the origins, but with better control of the bottom end. The sub $500 surround amps saw a slight improvement, but the $800+ surround pieces saw a massive improvement on every front.

Yes, THD below 1-2% is more than adequate and entirely inaudible. It's less about the "watts" making a difference, and more about a beefier power supply and output section, allowing the amplifier to better address speaker loads. In your example, Yamaha correctly determined that a 420 is going to go to a novice with less concern about sound quality and "iffy" speakers, or be used for background music. The M4 to a more active and critical listener.

 

[hopeless]

Which is power. At whatever volume level,(SPL) you like.
Voltage is signal strength but only when the current expected is supplied.

And herein lies the basis of Mr response

 

[BilboBaggins]

It's a power difference that you're hearing.

It's not just about loudness and decibels, but about peak power capability and dynamics .. transient capabilities ..
Especially in the bass which is what requires most of the power for accurate reproduction .. treble requires very little power ..

The bass is there with a low power receiver but it lacks presence, snap, and definition .. (and 25wpc is pretty much an ultra-low power receiver)

Noticed it many many times over the years especially with receivers ..
Pretty much all receivers skimp on the power supply compared to separates or even the better high current integrateds ..
Good power supplies are expensive .. the manufacturers skimp them to add other features ..

It isn't just the Infinity's that like power ... all speakers like power.
Don't know but your Infinity's may be on the inefficient side of the efficiency curve.

I've had Qa, Qb, Qe, and RS7s. They all like a hefty power supply, and the difference in sound without it is very noticeable. Also, if you are unhappy with the highs, your amp isn't giving enough power.

Akustic says it very well above. Many here on AK are in denial, or just don't have ears that are discerning enough to hear those differences. Which is fine for them. For those of us who do hear the differences, it means we need to spend more money, because we will hear those differences.

I moved away from Infinity's because I find that Infinity high frequencies are harsh to my ears. I've had the same from ESS AMT 1a Monitors as well, but don't have the same issue with the ESS AMT 1 pedestals nor with the AMT 4s.

 

[opnly bafld]

Akustic says it very well above. Many here on AK are in denial, or just don't have ears that are discerning enough to hear those differences. Which is fine for them. For those of us who do hear the differences, it means we need to spend more money, because we will hear those differences.

Talking about unused power again?
Not all amplifiers are made the same, power is not the only difference.

I have never owned expensive, high quality, high power amplifiers or demanding speakers.

 

[mcgjohn]

Which is power. At whatever volume level,(SPL) you like.
Voltage is signal strength but only when the current expected is supplied.

you can also get power with small amounts of current and high voltage output.

 

[hopeless]

I think I have quite the knowledge of load testing, but that's not the point so let's leave it be.

I know that video where a Yamaha "engineer" or let's just call him representative, says that they tune the sound to the west. <--B.S. marketing.

An audible pronounced high frequency tilt would show up in a sweep. -I'd like to know which amplifiers you're referring to.
I'm not saying that I don't believe you were reviewing amplifiers, I'm saying you've been had by the Yamaha marketing dept.

I was a a Yamaha rep for 15 years. K

I think I have quite the knowledge of load testing, but that's not the point so let's leave it be.

I know that video where a Yamaha "engineer" or let's just call him representative, says that they tune the sound to the west. <--B.S. marketing.

An audible pronounced high frequency tilt would show up in a sweep. -I'd like to know which amplifiers you're referring to.
I'm not saying that I don't believe you were reviewing amplifiers, I'm saying you've been had by the Yamaha marketing dept.

I spoke directly to the engineers. The engineers did not make the presentation.

Actually, I would say that you are missing the point. You keep going back to a static resistive load as your baseline. This is all about how an amplifier reacts to a speaker load in dynamic use. The more dynamic the speaker load, the more it's going to act like an equalizer. The poorer the amplifier design or build, the more the amplifier is affected. This is why some amp and speaker combos don't work especially well while others do. Also why cheaper amplifiers don't often work well with higher end speakers. Designers are expecting a better amplifier is going to be used.

You ask the wrong questions, and expect the specs to lead to the answers. They just don't, they are contextual, meaning different things in different situations.

 

[hopeless]

you can also get power with small amounts of current and high voltage output.

Hard to drive dynamic speakers that way though. The amplifiers job is to maintain voltage into the speaker load. Some just aren't too good at it

 

[Swokie63]

If Yamaha made their amplifiers so load dependent and interactive with complex loads, how would they make sure to get that "sound" through with every speaker as every speaker load is vastly different? If it was "tuned" to a bookshelf speaker with a certain combination of phase angle and Z at 7 kHz this "tuning" would sound completely different with another speaker.
The output impedance (DF) and negative feedback circuits Yamaha have had since before I was born say you've been had by marketing. Within the power envelope of the amplifier it will supply sufficient power across the whole audible band. -Flat.

The "bright" sounding "Yamaha Sound" would with another combination of speaker load, phase angle and Z at 7 kHz sound attenuated and dull. But somehow we are to believe that "The Yamaha Sound" is always bright? -It is not physically possible to always achieve a certain sound with complex loads unless you use EQ and this would ALSO show up with the standard resistive load testing. -Which it does not.

Show where "The Yamaha Sound" is visible in a measurement.
Which range of frequencies are pronounced with this "tuning" ?
If it's audible it must be above 0.5 dB minimum.
Tell which amplifiers you are talking about.

Nobody can visualize a sound..(except in our minds) there will never be an instrument for that..

And I don't think anybody can hear half a db..

Yamaha's are more capable, then the specs they are forced to print..

They aren't perfect, and they aren't the right choice for every situation, but they are damn good products..

 

[BilboBaggins]

Talking about unused power again?
Not all amplifiers are made the same, power is not the only difference.

I have never owned expensive, high quality, high power amplifiers or demanding speakers.

Oh, this is not unused power. If that was the case, the sound wouldn't improve. No, I'm talking about the reserve of power that is available when the amplifier needs to supply it. Too many designed for 8 ohm speakers start clipping with 4 ohm speakers, or more power hungry speakers when the dynamics eat up all that it can supply. That creates thin(or brittle) highs and uncontrolled bass initially, burnt out voice coils or blown power transistors if you leave it there long enough.

I wish it wasn't like that. I would have found my sound a lot sooner and far less expensively.

I just happen to like the sound of power hungry speakers driven by capable amplifiers. I don't consider my gear to be expensive. High quality, yes, and I do have demanding speakers. I even have Cornwalls, which many say are not demanding speakers. But I hear the difference when they are fed with more capable power amplifiers.

I know what I hear, and I know that not everybody can hear that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just find it frustrating that people who are very knowledgeable about audio equipment and music discount what they can't hear. It exists. That's all I say.

In theory, power amplifiers in general don't have voicing. That tends to be left to the preamp. So, using different power amplifiers should not make any major difference to how the speakers sound. How would you account for the changes I hear when I drive my Kef 105's with everything the same except the power amp is changed from McIntosh MC-2205 to Bose 1801? From 200 watts to 375 watts. Even my friend Roch, who dropped by when I was doing this test, heard the difference. It is quite easy to hear. And we never went over 35 watts on the meters.

The reason I keep bringing this up is because people here are continuously providing bad advice to eager readers trying to get the best sound for their buck. Oh, sure, your 35 watt HK receiver should be fine with those Paisley AE400 speakers. "Just don't use the loudness, and don't turn it up too loud." I wince every time I read this form of bad advice. And I admit I don't understand what it is like to not hear the distortion that over-driving that HK receiver will generate. I did jump up as quickly as I could and turned down the volume. Here are the specs.

8-inch Bextrene woofer
1-inch SEAS tweeter
Crossover at 2.5kHx
Efficiency 85dB
20 to 100w power
6-ohm

 

[Retro_Pete]

Oh, this is not unused power. If that was the case, the sound wouldn't improve. No, I'm talking about the reserve of power that is available when the amplifier needs to supply it. Too many designed for 8 ohm speakers start clipping with 4 ohm speakers, or more power hungry speakers when the dynamics eat up all that it can supply. That creates thin(or brittle) highs and uncontrolled bass initially, burnt out voice coils or blown power transistors if you leave it there long enough.

I wish it wasn't like that. I would have found my sound a lot sooner and far less expensively.

I just happen to like the sound of power hungry speakers driven by capable amplifiers. I don't consider my gear to be expensive. High quality, yes, and I do have demanding speakers. I even have Cornwalls, which many say are not demanding speakers. But I hear the difference when they are fed with more capable power amplifiers.

I know what I hear, and I know that not everybody can hear that. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I just find it frustrating that people who are very knowledgeable about audio equipment and music discount what they can't hear. It exists. That's all I say.

In theory, power amplifiers in general don't have voicing. That tends to be left to the preamp. So, using different power amplifiers should not make any major difference to how the speakers sound. How would you account for the changes I hear when I drive my Kef 105's with everything the same except the power amp is changed from McIntosh MC-2205 to Bose 1801? From 200 watts to 375 watts. Even my friend Roch, who dropped by when I was doing this test, heard the difference. It is quite easy to hear. And we never went over 35 watts on the meters.

The reason I keep bringing this up is because people here are continuously providing bad advice to eager readers trying to get the best sound for their buck. Oh, sure, your 35 watt HK receiver should be fine with those Paisley AE400 speakers. "Just don't use the loudness, and don't turn it up too loud." I wince every time I read this form of bad advice. And I admit I don't understand what it is like to not hear the distortion that over-driving that HK receiver will generate. I did jump up as quickly as I could and turned down the volume. Here are the specs.

8-inch Bextrene woofer
1-inch SEAS tweeter
Crossover at 2.5kHx
Efficiency 85dB
20 to 100w power
6-ohm

True. You can, in fact, not have too much clean power. At a certain threshold it's of course only a peace of mind thing.
If residential amplifiers all had clipping indicators it would be easier to tell what is going on and my educated guess would be that many clip or near clip their amplifiers regularly.
Playing around with loudness, EQ and room correction can eat up whatever headroom you thought you had in an instant with certain music.

 

[twiiii]

Some guys just don't get that there is quality and quantity. The difference between the Yamaha and the JVC and The Yamaha is quality. Yamahas from that period were thin sounding from the smallest to largest unit. That was the typical Yamaha sound. Though we didn't sell JVC, they did come in to the shop for repair where I heard a few. They were always a bit warmer with just a hint of bass boost and a relaxed high end though they measured flat. Yamaha was always trying to make their units more economically and yet maintain that Yamaha sound. When they went to switching power supplies ad modular out modules I gave up on them and never really accepted them again. They did not hold up under severe operating conditions as well as others did. We had customers where the Yamaha equipment ran 24/7 and after a couple years recievers and separates had to have power supplies rebuilt and tons of signal capacitors replaced. Marantz held up, Mcintosh held, up, even problem prone NAD even held up better. B&K 's all failed especially the AVR's. I think the difference was a total choice by Yamahas design team. Others were heading in that direction of sound reproduction also. While others wanted to stay with more accepted goals in sound reproduction. Infinities can be on the bright to very bright side. So you don't want to be using a dry austere sounding electronics unless that's your style. Its not mine for sure.

 

[petes'picks]

Heard a pair of Qe I had many years ago being pushed by a 10 wpc 6bq5 pp amp, one of the best sounding combinations I have heard. So good I may have to get another pair to try again. Its the quality of watts after you get past 10 wpc for most reasonable speakers. Those that own speakers that are difficult to drive are always chasing their tails it seems. I didnt find the Qe difficult to drive at all, 30wpc solid state should be plenty just be careful not to clip amp and fry the emits.