Infinity RS 2.5 crossover -- capacitor replacement

[EchoWars]

A bunch of big, paralleled film caps just doesn't look like something from the mfgr.

 

[tubed]

A bunch of big, paralleled film caps just doesn't look like something from the mfgr.

Film?
Upon close they certainly don't look like electrolytics and they are "plastic" looking.
I forgot an earlier recap of my QLSs revealed the same thing for the 1100uf cap.


I know you've probably seen a gazillion capacitors.
If these are readily recognizable as film and if in relative good condition can they be "reused" in the same application? Thanks again.

 

[Maxamillion]

Those "black with red end" caps look like Callins electrolytics, which were very common in speakers of that era.

Here's a before picture of a Altec Bolero crossover I rebuilt - notice the Callins electrolytics:

 

[tubed]

They do look like Callins which are supposedly in horrilble shape when aged.
The callins I've seen have "Callins" printed. These havent any name brand.
I did remove a similar looking 20uf cap from an Infinity 2000a that was a "TI"

I always was led to believe that electrolytics normal have metal casings as opposed to plastic.

 

[EchoWars]

Hmmm...those do have red ends, don't they? That, and there's nothing in the pic to really give a sense of scale. A 350µf 100V film cap is really gonna be big.

 

[tubed]

As to scale, I believe these 350uf black/red caps are larger than the new 500uf Bennics that I've recently installed but nowhere near the gargantuan size they'd seem to have to be to be modern polyester films.

 

[rdp91356]

any problems with multiple small caps in parallel?

In an attempt to at least match the physical size (in volume) of the old big caps, one solution would be to run many small caps in parallel. I know others have run 11 100uF caps in parallel, but this doesn't even come close to the volume of the old caps.

Would there be problems with a plan like this?:

Original 1100uF = 166,813 cu mm volume

Multiple caps in parallel replacement:
22uf x 48 = 1056uF*
13mm x 27mm = 3582 cu mm ea
x 48 = 171,934 cu mm total volume
_________________________

Original 700uF = 86,546 cu mm volume

Multiple caps in parallel replacement:
33uf x 20 = 660uF*
13mm x 32mm = 4245 cu mm ea
x 20 = 84,900 cu mm total volume

*The new smaller electrolytics tend to measure a bit higher than their rated capacitance, so the total capacitance would be closer to the goal of 1100 or 700.

 

[Burmester]

So after getting a lot of good information about recapping, especially this thread: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78978 I decided I would recap the crossovers my RS 2.5s. I thought my speakers still sounded great so I wasn't sure that I would hear much of a difference, and also afraid that I might change the sound too drastically from what I was used to. So I planned out how everything would fit and what replacements I would use and ordered my parts.

But I also wanted to really know what was going on with the old caps so I bought this ESR meter (from an eBay seller): http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html. It can measure the caps in circuit, but I also measured them out of circuit to be sure. The measurements were only slightly different in most cases, except for that 3.83uF tweeter capacitor -- I got crazy numbers measuring that in circuit. Below are the numbers testing all the old caps out of circuit. Much better than I thought they would, which made me wonder if I should just replace the ones that were the furthest out of spec and just solder everything else back the way it was. But I decided to replace them all since all the new caps were within 2% of where they should be.

1981 Infinity RS 2.5 original 30 year old capacitor ESR meter readings December 2011.
Left:
1100uF = 1202uF .07 ohm
700uF = 735.4uF .06 ohm
700uF = 768uF .06 ohm
125uF (75uF + 50uF) = 143.2uF .06 ohm
125uF (75uF + 50uF) = 135.6uF .06 ohm
50uF = 56.26uF .10 ohm
3.83uF = 3.64uF .08 ohm

Right:
1100uF = 1190uF .08 ohm
700uF = 744uF .08 ohm
700uF = 726.2uF .08 ohm
125uF = 133.4uF .11 ohm
125uF = 128.8uF .10 ohm
50uF = 55.85uF .11 ohm
3.83uF = 3.59uF .08 ohm

*Note the differences of the 125uF caps between the left and right crossovers. The left uses parallel 75+50, while the right uses single 125. What's even stranger about this is that the serial numbers are sequential and I am the original owner, so it came from the factory like this.

Replacement capacitors (from parts-express.com) All measured within 2%:

1100uF =
two Parts Express 500uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors
+ one Parts Express 100uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitor in parallel

700uF =
one Parts Express 500uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitor
+ two Parts Express 100uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors in parallel

125uF =
one Dayton Audio DMPC-100 100uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor
+ one Dayton Audio DMPC-25 25uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor in parallel

50uF =
one Dayton Audio DMPC-50 50uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor

3.83uF =
two Jantzen 1.5uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitor
+ one Jantzen 0.82uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitor
+ one Dayton Audio Film & Foil DFFC-0.01 0.01uF 400V By-Pass Capacitor

I also made a few other improvements:

1.) New binding posts to replace the original crappy ones.

2.) Added a Neutrik Speakon 8-pole connector to make an air tight connection from the top end and crossover to the bottom cabinet (to replace the hole filled with six single wires and a blob of putty). I saw where another AK'er used this method on his 4.5s. I used 13awg 8-conductor speaker cable from parts express. Also, the small hole in the top of the cabinet where the wires com through is a flimsy 1/8" piece of pressed hardboard glued and stapled over a much larger hole in the cabinet itself, this was full of gaps, so I reglued and sealed that up and added a piece of wood to fill the larger hole for a sturdier mounting point for the Neutrik connector.

3.) Caulked all the seams inside the lower cabinet, new woofer frame gasket, and added a front to back cross-brace.

4.) Added a toggle swith safety cover to protect that important "single-amp - bi-amp" mode switch on top. I always thought this was mis-labeled since you can biamp using the internal crossover and keep that switch in single-amp mode. It should only be in bi-amp mode when using an active external crossover with 2 amps. IMO it should be labeled "internal crossover - external crossover".

Having never done this before I was a little nervous when I hooked up and tested the first speaker. It's all pretty straightforward, but still there is room for making mistakes. Especially getting the 6 wires in the right sequence between the male and female parts of the Neutrik connector. A mistake there could be very bad. There was definitely a difference between the new left and the original right so I was anxious to get the right crossover done.

I am happy to say it was a complete success! I am somewhat surprised that everything sounds that much better -- especially since the old caps weren't that bad. More detailed cleaner highs, cleaner mids, tighter, deeper bass (probably partly due to sealing up the bottom cabinet) Everything good about these speakers just got better. I don't think they sounded this good when they were brand new. I just finished them yesterday and the more I listen the better they sound.

Larger before and after images here:
crossovers before
crossovers after

 

[Burmester]

So after getting a lot of good information about recapping, especially this thread: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78978 I decided I would recap the crossovers my RS 2.5s. I thought my speakers still sounded great so I wasn't sure that I would hear much of a difference, and also afraid that I might change the sound too drastically from what I was used to. So I planned out how everything would fit and what replacements I would use and ordered my parts.

But I also wanted to really know what was going on with the old caps so I bought this ESR meter (from an eBay seller): http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html. It can measure the caps in circuit, but I also measured them out of circuit to be sure. The measurements were only slightly different in most cases, except for that 3.83uF tweeter capacitor -- I got crazy numbers measuring that in circuit. Below are the numbers testing all the old caps out of circuit. Much better than I thought they would, which made me wonder if I should just replace the ones that were the furthest out of spec and just solder everything else back the way it was. But I decided to replace them all since all the new caps were within 2% of where they should be.

1981 Infinity RS 2.5 original 30 year old capacitor ESR meter readings December 2011.
Left:
1100uF = 1202uF .07 ohm
700uF = 735.4uF .06 ohm
700uF = 768uF .06 ohm
125uF (75uF + 50uF) = 143.2uF .06 ohm
125uF (75uF + 50uF) = 135.6uF .06 ohm
50uF = 56.26uF .10 ohm
3.83uF = 3.64uF .08 ohm

Right:
1100uF = 1190uF .08 ohm
700uF = 744uF .08 ohm
700uF = 726.2uF .08 ohm
125uF = 133.4uF .11 ohm
125uF = 128.8uF .10 ohm
50uF = 55.85uF .11 ohm
3.83uF = 3.59uF .08 ohm

*Note the differences of the 125uF caps between the left and right crossovers. The left uses parallel 75+50, while the right uses single 125. What's even stranger about this is that the serial numbers are sequential and I am the original owner, so it came from the factory like this.

Replacement capacitors (from parts-express.com) All measured within 2%:

1100uF =
two Parts Express 500uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors
+ one Parts Express 100uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitor in parallel

700uF =
one Parts Express 500uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitor
+ two Parts Express 100uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors in parallel

125uF =
one Dayton Audio DMPC-100 100uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor
+ one Dayton Audio DMPC-25 25uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor in parallel

50uF =
one Dayton Audio DMPC-50 50uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor

3.83uF =
two Jantzen 1.5uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitor
+ one Jantzen 0.82uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitor
+ one Dayton Audio Film & Foil DFFC-0.01 0.01uF 400V By-Pass Capacitor

I also made a few other improvements:

1.) New binding posts to replace the original crappy ones.

2.) Added a Neutrik Speakon 8-pole connector to make an air tight connection from the top end and crossover to the bottom cabinet (to replace the hole filled with six single wires and a blob of putty). I saw where another AK'er used this method on his 4.5s. I used 13awg 8-conductor speaker cable from parts express. Also, the small hole in the top of the cabinet where the wires com through is a flimsy 1/8" piece of pressed hardboard glued and stapled over a much larger hole in the cabinet itself, this was full of gaps, so I reglued and sealed that up and added a piece of wood to fill the larger hole for a sturdier mounting point for the Neutrik connector.

3.) Caulked all the seams inside the lower cabinet, new woofer frame gasket, and added a front to back cross-brace.

4.) Added a toggle swith safety cover to protect that important "single-amp - bi-amp" mode switch on top. I always thought this was mis-labeled since you can biamp using the internal crossover and keep that switch in single-amp mode. It should only be in bi-amp mode when using an active external crossover with 2 amps. IMO it should be labeled "internal crossover - external crossover".

Having never done this before I was a little nervous when I hooked up and tested the first speaker. It's all pretty straightforward, but still there is room for making mistakes. Especially getting the 6 wires in the right sequence between the male and female parts of the Neutrik connector. A mistake there could be very bad. There was definitely a difference between the new left and the original right so I was anxious to get the right crossover done.

I am happy to say it was a complete success! I am somewhat surprised that everything sounds that much better -- especially since the old caps weren't that bad. More detailed cleaner highs, cleaner mids, tighter, deeper bass (probably partly due to sealing up the bottom cabinet) Everything good about these speakers just got better. I don't think they sounded this good when they were brand new. I just finished them yesterday and the more I listen the better they sound.

Larger before and after images here:
crossovers before
crossovers after

 

[Burmester]

So after getting a lot of good information about recapping, especially this thread: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78978 I decided I would recap the crossovers my RS 2.5s. I thought my speakers still sounded great so I wasn't sure that I would hear much of a difference, and also afraid that I might change the sound too drastically from what I was used to. So I planned out how everything would fit and what replacements I would use and ordered my parts.

But I also wanted to really know what was going on with the old caps so I bought this ESR meter (from an eBay seller): http://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr70.html. It can measure the caps in circuit, but I also measured them out of circuit to be sure. The measurements were only slightly different in most cases, except for that 3.83uF tweeter capacitor -- I got crazy numbers measuring that in circuit. Below are the numbers testing all the old caps out of circuit. Much better than I thought they would, which made me wonder if I should just replace the ones that were the furthest out of spec and just solder everything else back the way it was. But I decided to replace them all since all the new caps were within 2% of where they should be.

1981 Infinity RS 2.5 original 30 year old capacitor ESR meter readings December 2011.
Left:
1100uF = 1202uF .07 ohm
700uF = 735.4uF .06 ohm
700uF = 768uF .06 ohm
125uF (75uF + 50uF) = 143.2uF .06 ohm
125uF (75uF + 50uF) = 135.6uF .06 ohm
50uF = 56.26uF .10 ohm
3.83uF = 3.64uF .08 ohm

Right:
1100uF = 1190uF .08 ohm
700uF = 744uF .08 ohm
700uF = 726.2uF .08 ohm
125uF = 133.4uF .11 ohm
125uF = 128.8uF .10 ohm
50uF = 55.85uF .11 ohm
3.83uF = 3.59uF .08 ohm

*Note the differences of the 125uF caps between the left and right crossovers. The left uses parallel 75+50, while the right uses single 125. What's even stranger about this is that the serial numbers are sequential and I am the original owner, so it came from the factory like this.

Replacement capacitors (from parts-express.com) All measured within 2%:

1100uF =
two Parts Express 500uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors
+ one Parts Express 100uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitor in parallel

700uF =
one Parts Express 500uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitor
+ two Parts Express 100uF 100V Non-Polarized Electrolytic Capacitors in parallel

125uF =
one Dayton Audio DMPC-100 100uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor
+ one Dayton Audio DMPC-25 25uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor in parallel

50uF =
one Dayton Audio DMPC-50 50uF 250V Metallized Polypropylene Capacitor

3.83uF =
two Jantzen 1.5uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitor
+ one Jantzen 0.82uF 800V Z-Superior Capacitor
+ one Dayton Audio Film & Foil DFFC-0.01 0.01uF 400V By-Pass Capacitor

I also made a few other improvements:

1.) New binding posts to replace the original crappy ones.

2.) Added a Neutrik Speakon 8-pole connector to make an air tight connection from the top end and crossover to the bottom cabinet (to replace the hole filled with six single wires and a blob of putty). I saw where another AK'er used this method on his 4.5s. I used 13awg 8-conductor speaker cable from parts express. Also, the small hole in the top of the cabinet where the wires com through is a flimsy 1/8" piece of pressed hardboard glued and stapled over a much larger hole in the cabinet itself, this was full of gaps, so I reglued and sealed that up and added a piece of wood to fill the larger hole for a sturdier mounting point for the Neutrik connector.

3.) Caulked all the seams inside the lower cabinet, new woofer frame gasket, and added a front to back cross-brace.

4.) Added a toggle swith safety cover to protect that important "single-amp - bi-amp" mode switch on top. I always thought this was mis-labeled since you can biamp using the internal crossover and keep that switch in single-amp mode. It should only be in bi-amp mode when using an active external crossover with 2 amps. IMO it should be labeled "internal crossover - external crossover".

Having never done this before I was a little nervous when I hooked up and tested the first speaker. It's all pretty straightforward, but still there is room for making mistakes. Especially getting the 6 wires in the right sequence between the male and female parts of the Neutrik connector. A mistake there could be very bad. There was definitely a difference between the new left and the original right so I was anxious to get the right crossover done.

I am happy to say it was a complete success! I am somewhat surprised that everything sounds that much better -- especially since the old caps weren't that bad. More detailed cleaner highs, cleaner mids, tighter, deeper bass (probably partly due to sealing up the bottom cabinet) Everything good about these speakers just got better. I don't think they sounded this good when they were brand new. I just finished them yesterday and the more I listen the better they sound.

Larger before and after images here:
crossovers before
crossovers after

 

[Burmester]

I have a question about the Infinity RS 2.5. I hope you can answer it. I made a new thread between the crossover and the speakers. At the watkinswoofer, the ground wire extends directly to the 2 ohm connection. But at the 4 ohm connection is not a ground wire, should I connect the 2 ohm to the 4 ohm? I hope you can help me.

 

[goodolpg]

Can't tell what this means, you said you "made a new thread between the crossover and the speakers".
Don't know what that means.
Anyways, maybe this will help....
http://www.infinity-classics.de/technik/manuals/RS_2.5_technical_sheet.pdf

 

[7.62]

I'm bringing this thread up to say Thanks to the OP for sharing the pictures, it really helps me the way you labeled everything.

So are any of you guys still around ?. Long term how's the recap sounding & what was the general outcome on the 2 large capacitors, did they go back in ?

 

[rdp91356]

I'm bringing this thread up to say Thanks to the OP for sharing the pictures, it really helps me the way you labeled everything.

So are any of you guys still around ?. Long term how's the recap sounding & what was the general outcome on the 2 large capacitors, did they go back in ?

I recently put the original 700 and 1100 back in but don’t hear a noticeable difference. They’re still within 10% capacitance and the esr is still good after 45years! Never had a problem with the multiple caps in parallel that I was using, but it always bothered me that they were so small. I recently got a new preamp an dac (Schiit Audio Saga 2, Schiit Modi 5), and also took an old EQ out of the chain and it made a huge difference in dynamics and bass slam. I had been using a Denon AVR as a preamp for al long time. Didn’t know what I was missing. These speakers now sound better than they ever have.

Edit: I should clarify I swapped the big caps back after getting the new preamp and dac.