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Initial Thoughts Modern High Performance Table Versus A Vintage Machine

Mister Pig,

This hobby can still be enjoyable and I will miss your updates.

I will also miss the effective way you call out people.

The sad truth is misery loves company, which is why miserable people enjoy tearing down other folk's fun.
 
Dear Mr Pig,

Please, reconsider your decision of retiring. I greatly enjoy, respect and value your comments.
 
Mister Pig said:
But there is one alien member of the board that appeared to be interested in the possibility of the table displacing my main one. I wanted to show what the limitations were in current form....nothing more.
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I just want to say I am sorry if one of my posts was responsible for upsetting you. As someone who is interested in getting a better table, this thread has been very informative and has made me realize that both vintage and new are wonderful as long as you buy quality.

This thread has been a journey, and a very arduous one at times. There have been insults, insinuations, accusations, hurt feelings, fights and flared tempers. Many posts have been deleted and/or edited by the mods. The thread was locked once. Posters have been warned and one popular member has been banned due to this thread. But no journey of discovery is worthwhile if it stays on the easy well worn path. Its those that get off the beaten path that get rewarded with the finest experience, even though that path may be difficult and dangerous. There has been too much suffering on this thread for you to quit now Mr. Pig. And I would like to say that you have a responsibility to finish what you started, even though it may be frustrating at times. And we have a responsibility to be respectful and considerate of your well intended, thoughtful posts and not get all hyper-sensitive if you should state something we disagree with.

But for my part in your disappearance I want to say I am sorry, and to entreat you to come back.
 
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Cartridge choice was a default budget consideration for a cart a few of us have heard and respected at it's price point ($20<ca $200). The Grace is more costly exotica by comparison (and probably needing a costly retip to be usable) as would be a Soundsmith MMC in an adapter.

Nailer said:
I encourage you in your current vinyl listening rig comparison. Stay the course. I’m looking forward to reading your findings. I’m also thinking that this is potentially the first of many such comparisons involving the Thorens’ morphing from a vintage into a modern day HiFi turntable.


My 2 cents:

Being a MM/MI disciple I find myself unable to concur with you cartridge choice. The Grace 9E would be my recommendation for a beginning benchmark, and I’m an AT fan. I also encourage you to bring your CD player into play when comparing the aspects of MC and MM/MI sound.

I’m skeptical regarding tonearms and wood. Not that they can't sound good, but is it the best material? While Joe Grado’s original TA was wood, his final TA wasn’t and performance wise it is a modern day HiFi TA.

Later,
Nailer

PS: Please tell me that your current avatar is a childhood photo and your mom bought you those cute shoes.
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Pio1980 said:
To a certain extent IME, ignorance is indeed bliss. A great bit of human nature philosophy from a WW-I era tune, "How 'ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Pay-reee?".
Even so, enjoy what you have with the awareness that there is always more in the groove than most of our gear can retrieve. My 'best' here is better than my 'good' on the good discs but 'good' still has it's virtues and perfectly enjoyable in it's own way.
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Excellent response.

My friend's system is considerably nicer than mine, yet I do not feel shame or envy, or even disappointment that my own system can't perform at that level.

On the contrary, hearing what a truly high end system can do gives me something to aspire towards, nothing more and nothing less. My system is getting better and better, step by carefully planned step.

I just don't have the spare cash to buy a five-figure hifi, and I'm OK with that. And it's always a pleasure visiting my friend and hearing his bitchen hifi!
 
The name of this thread should be changed to Desperate Housewives.....

Some people here are worse than my wife and sister in laws

:music:
 
BillyB said:
The name of this thread should be changed to Desperate Housewives.....

Some people here are worse than my wife and sister in laws

:music:
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Nah... on "Desperate Housewives" you've got murder, cheating on spouses, dark secrets and skeletons in the closet, etc...

Here we've just got a bunch of geeks arguing over turntables.

I guess I missed the worst of it. According to one previous poster a number of inflammatory posts were deleted and one member banned. Too bad it came to this.
 
cactuscowboy said:
Nah... on "Desperate Housewives" you've got murder, cheating on spouses, dark secrets and skeletons in the closet, etc...

Here we've just got a bunch of geeks arguing over turntables.

I guess I missed the worst of it. According to one previous poster a number of inflammatory posts were deleted and one member banned. Too bad it came to this.
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That, and the creator of this thread, who's probably gonna be MIA for some time.

Can't say I blame him.

But wait, I have the solution, and a clear winner, the Thorens!

Just sprinkle some Armor All on the record playing on the Thorens, and the Thorens should then be able to stomp a mudhole in the Galibier's ass, and march it dry. :banana:
 
Mr. Pig, thanks for sticking your neck out and giving us a little insight into two great tables. sorry this digressed into another giant mess of a thread.

I'd love to hear both your tables, I'm sure they sound awesome!

oink! oink!!
 
Anyone that would be offering an intended-superior "upper-end" player would be building on the best of what is known in established practice as well as avoiding the field test-revealed shortcomings of the otherwise better-to-best examples. This pretty much never comes cheap, the relatively simple and elegant WTRP shows this as much as any.
The OP had no agenda other than to share an interesting and usefully informative project.
 
This is an unfortunate turn of events. Knowing Mister Pig I can say he was actually really enjoying his Thorens table and I don't blame him one bit for skipping town. Everyone is so quick to get their feelings hurt around here. This thread wasn't written with the intent to "roast the Thorens" and he has no motivation to do so either.

I am pretty disappointed in everyone, nice job guys.
 
Pio1980 said:
Cartridge choice was a default budget consideration for a cart a few of us have heard and respected at it's price point ($20<ca $200). The Grace is more costly exotica by comparison (and probably needing a costly retip to be usable) as would be a Soundsmith MMC in an adapter.
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My Grace recommendation was with regard to Mister Pig's intention of upgrading his 124 rig's MM to an AT155LC (his needs a stylus and a NOS OEM stylus would be about $200 shipped). I failed to make this clear in my open letter post and have edited it to do so.

In other threads Mister Pig has expressed his preference for the MC breed, but he wants to give the MM/MI breeds another listen. In makingnthe Grace F9 rec. I was trying to give the MM more of a fighting chance. His MC is $5K and based on this I’m thinking $350 for a Soundsmith ruby retipped F9 would not be too much of a budget stretch considering it could be easily sold for little financial penalty.
 
Pity that JICO doesn't offer an SAS for the Grace MMs. Is a Grace that much better than an equiv O'fon OM type?
 
240sx4u said:
This is an unfortunate turn of events. Knowing Mister Pig I can say he was actually really enjoying his Thorens table and I don't blame him one bit for skipping town. Everyone is so quick to get their feelings hurt around here. This thread wasn't written with the intent to "roast the Thorens" and he has no motivation to do so either.

I am pretty disappointed in everyone, nice job guys.
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Mr. Pig is a introspective, intelligent and very knowledgeable person who meant no one any harm or insult. I would like to see him come back. AK is a lesser place due to his absence. I know he got upset & quit because this thread occasionally dipped down into a NFL message board style of chaos & aggression.

But I would also like to say that is the exception and not the rule here on AK. For example, when Mr. Pig wrote the thread about warping his Thorens platter. Everyone here, without exception, tried to comfort him, console him and empathize with him in that thread. People here genuinely felt bad for him and tried to help with ideas and suggestions. So we are not all bad all of the time.
 
Of course AK isn't all bad. I still don't know how this whole thread degenerated into such a pile of crap. There are a lot of assumptions flying around about Mister Pig that are just plain un-true. Oh well, it's every ones loss.
 
Late to the party-

I'm the fella who suggested the ADC arm to John/Mr. Pig. It's a great performer, and under-rated. Sometimes with reviews, one needs to read between the lines- I've heard arms like the ADC-LMF, the SME 3009 and others get an unfair review at times, but put into perspective, they are very good performers. That ADC is a favorite of mine. Not the best, but pretty damn great. I liked it better than the Infinity Black Widow, and much more than the Sumiko, Jelco, the Audioquest, and many more, to be honest.

Problem with some of these reviews of the SME 3009s and ADC LMFs and other arms is the tested gear is being compared to gear 4x-10x the adjusted cost of the component. Perspective is often skewed or outright lost here.

There's also always the element of egos, opinions, emotional elements, passions and a heavy dose of personal bias in these reviews and the battle between subjectivity and objectivity.

Anyhow, I frequently talk with John/Mr. Pig and give him credit for taking on this project. No one needs to agree 100% with his findings but it's sure nice to hear his take on things, which I find relatively neutral and ultimately positive for both tables.

Makes for good reading and hopefully friendly debating with open minds and respect.



At some point I'll post on an on-going project of mine- basically a continuation of what he was doing with the Technics SP25 but taken further, with more mods (and lots more money) thrown at it. So far, I've had people unimpressed with the table and others very impressed. I kinda like that- makes me think things through, look at the project from different angles.
 
240sx4u said:
Of course AK isn't all bad. I still don't know how this whole thread degenerated into such a pile of crap. There are a lot of assumptions flying around about Mister Pig that are just plain un-true. Oh well, it's every ones loss.
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Mr. Pig is very rational and civilized, which makes it very hard to deal with the irrational and uncivilized. But if you quit & walk away, then you have allowed the bastards to win.

There is a cat here who regularly gets beat like a circus monkey. But he never gives up, never gives in, never gets upset and never quits. That is a positive attribute that we can all learn from.
 
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