Inner Groove Distortion - M97Xe - With Pictures

[ScottCash]

Hi all. I have a Pioneer PL-600 turntable with a Shure M97Xe cartridge. I am having a serious problem with distortion. It typically happens in the higher ranges like 1500hz and up spikes. Some background...

-Happens at all volume levels
-Brand new and old records
-Different A/B speakers
-100 Hours on the Stylus
-Brush Up Position

I have set all the parameters as best I can. (See pics) However, I still get distortion at different places on the album. Like Chet Baker's punchy trumpet notes, or Norah Jones high parts. Forget about Boston or AC/DC I am using the protractor that came with the Shure. What am I doing wrong or did I get a defective cartridge???

 

[Dennis Gardner]

It looks like it is being driven inward from the inner and outer position pics. I would try a heavier setting on the anti-skate to counter the natural drift inward. You can always try using the cartridge with the brush down to see if it tracks better.

It is always hard to tell by photos, but the headshell looks like it is tweaked to the right on the photo marked outside position on the guide. It could simply be a camera angle, but line up the holes in the headshell and the guide line.......they don't match at all.

 

[Blue Shadow]

I'd crank up the tracking force and crank down the antiskate. Try 1.5 grams tracking and about 0.75 on the antiskate. It does look like the cartridge has been forced in with too low an a/s and trying a higher a/s while making adjustments is something to consider.

 

[SSaxdude]

The protractor that comes with the M97xE is Baerwald supposedly. Another protractor (like Stevenson) might work better for you on the inner grooves.

 

[audiojones]

For a Pioneer "S" arm table the recommended overhang adjustment is 49mm from the stylus tip to the outside of the rubber gasket on the bayonet connector of the headshell, this seems to have worked well on every Pioneer table I've ever had. Also I'd set the tracking force at 1.5 grams with the brush up, 1.75 if you use it with the brush down. I've always had good results with setting the anti-skate to the same number as the tracking force as per the manufacturers instructions, ymmv of course.

 

[ScottCash]

Thanks guys. I set the stylus tip to rubber ring overhang at 49mm. It made the protractor alignment much easier. I also set the VTF to 1.5 and the A/S to .75. Definitely seems to have helped somewhat. It is not as pronounced as it was but it's still there enough for me to hear it. Definitely on the more dynamic notes. For instance a low tenor sax...nothing. A trumpet with some emphasis, can still hear it. Any other "fine tuning" ideas? Thanks again!

 

[Blue Shadow]

try a tenth or two more on the tracking force.

try equal antiskate to see if going up is better. Then go down to 0.5 and see.

experiment with the a/s but keep the tracking at the max plus a tenth or two and see if you can get the sound you want.

 

[electrode101]

Can you try another cartridge in the arm? I had a situation where I thought my cartridge (an Ortofon SPU) was toast. Mounted another cart just for grins, and it sounded bad, too. Turns out it was bad horizontal bearings in one section of the arm.

Had a duplicate arm, mounted it, and it made my turntable sound like a new rig.

Make sure there's no crud on the stylus tip, either. Also, check to see if the table is level by using a bubble level device

jD

 

[WaynerN]

First of all, if you are going to align your cartridge, you have to set your anti-skate setting to zero. This takes all the pressure off of the stylus. After you have done the alignment, then you can set your anti-skating back to where it should be.

I never met a cartridge that didn't like AS, but with vintage decks, you can't trust what the dial shows. If its a spring type AS control, the spring has aged and perhaps has lost some of its spring power and would actually require a higher dial position.

 

[iLUVanalog]

First of all, if you are going to align your cartridge, you have to set your anti-skate setting to zero. This takes all the pressure off of the stylus. After you have done the alignment, then you can set your anti-skating back to where it should be.

I never met a cartridge that didn't like AS, but with vintage decks, you can't trust what the dial shows. If its a spring type AS control, the spring has aged and perhaps has lost some of its spring power and would actually require a higher dial position.

I'm with Wayner on this.

 

[beatcomber]

Send the cartridge back and get a replacement.

I've used an M97xE on a wide variety of arms, including a PL-560, and had no tracking issues whatsoever.

 

[vinylrayk]

Assuming your arm bearings are free and not binding, I'm leaning towards antiskate issues. Sideways stylus deflection with the arm lowered onto a spinning record is a better indicator of antiskate mis-setting than with the arm resting on a scale. A test record is immensely helpful for setting AS but even then, it is only an approximation and usually takes some fine tuning. You didn't say, but too much / too little AS typically shows up in only one channel or the other. Is the distortion in both channels? Does it happen everywhere or only at the end of the record?

Of course after exhausting all the adjustment options, it IS possible that you have a defective stylus, so don't bang your head against the wall too hard.

 

[gusten]

Thanks guys. I set the stylus tip to rubber ring overhang at 49mm. It made the protractor alignment much easier. I also set the VTF to 1.5 and the A/S to .75. Definitely seems to have helped somewhat. It is not as pronounced as it was but it's still there enough for me to hear it. Definitely on the more dynamic notes. For instance a low tenor sax...nothing. A trumpet with some emphasis, can still hear it. Any other "fine tuning" ideas? Thanks again!

In principle there are three things that can cause the problems: the needle isn´t clean, the needle isn´t of a good quality or the VTF isn´t correct. For this type of needle the problem isn´t due to misalignments or AS; it´s either the needle or the VTF.

 

[Northwinds]

For some reason, in the below image, it looks like the head shell is bent slightly outwards. This could cause the IGD your hearing since the cart might be aligned by the protractor but the diamond tip would not be

 

[WaynerN]

He's putting the cartridge in a Baerwald alignment, not the table's design alignment, which is a Stevenson. Therefore, the cartridge will be skewed in the headshell (as it should be).

When we talk about "tracking error distortion" we are not necessarily talking about "grunge" types of distortion. Distortion's means not as the original. What is really distorted is the "timing" between the inner and outer grooves. Therefore, if the stylus is not perpendicular to the left and right channel, it will be ahead (in time) on one channel, and behind in time on the other channel (relative to the cartridge's position).

'ner

 

[Northwinds]

^^^^ The headshell looks bent at the collar, alignment gauge notwithstanding

 

[AJD1964]

I'm thinking the stylus is bad based on the OP's description.
I have a brand new 97XE and only heard VERY SLIGHT IGD - and that was only on 1 record (used) and one track so far.
I vote - Send it back for replacement.

 

[twiiii]

All your issues plagued me 45 years ago and that's why I changed to a linear tracking tone arm. I was using heavy old Ortofon moving coils with SME 3009 I a, II, and 3 at the time and changed to the petite SL 15 with external transformers. Between the new ortofon and the Rabco SL-8E tracking a 2.2 grams most of the issues went away. Would the combo track with a V-15 IV or V, no of course not. But it might be time for you to try a new stylus. I have since ,moved on to Dynavector 20 X2 HO. and I just don't have tracking issues anymore at 2.3 grams. Don't knock linear tracking until you have tried it. My former 981HZL stanton was great with the Rabco as was the V-15 V, but the Dynavector is oh so much better in all facets of reproduction.

 

[Frank Sol]

I have since ,moved on to Dynavector 20 X2 HO. and I just don't have tracking issues anymore at 2.3 grams.

I have the Dyna 20x2L... Had it for a few years. Amazing the problems it solved for me

 

[hi*ball]

Have you checked to see that there is no issue with your tone arm bearings? Simply float the arm at zero and lightly blow on it. Be sure that it does not have any resistance at all through the whole record playing range.