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Integrated amp vs. pre amp

I have been using a RCA to 3.5mm cord to connect my iPhone to my VSX I'm using as my pre amp. Would adding a dedicated pre amp like the Basic Kenwoods so I could attach a turntable and other inputs and then adding one of these dedicated DAC's when I want to play music from my iPhone, be a good step in increasing sound quality. I don't know how bad the internal DAC and headphone jack in the iPhone is, to know if it would benefit to add a DAC to my pre amp (or a pre amp DAC).


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Ealyb11 said:
I have been using a RCA to 3.5mm cord to connect my iPhone to my VSX I'm using as my pre amp. Would adding a dedicated pre amp like the Basic Kenwoods so I could attach a turntable and other inputs and then adding one of these dedicated DAC's when I want to play music from my iPhone, be a good step in increasing sound quality. I don't know how bad the internal DAC and headphone jack in the iPhone is, to know if it would benefit to add a DAC to my pre amp (or a pre amp DAC).
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Sounds like a fine plan to me. I also like the idea of "going up the ladder a bit", but that would take patience and/or luck with your budget.

P.S. If it seemed like damning with faint praise to call the Hafler "decent", what I meant was with respect to high-end. It's a lot better than a lot of stuff out there, and the phono section is very respected in particular. But there are lots of others, too.

Merry Christmas.

:music:
 
So the DAC+pre amp will net me a sound upgrade over using the rca/3.5mm cord from my iPhone's jack to an input on whatever pre amp?


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Well, I haven't used an iPhone for a source, but from what I've read, improvement over the internal DAC is possible.
 
Ealyb11 said:
So the DAC+pre amp will net me a sound upgrade over using the rca/3.5mm cord from my iPhone's jack to an input on whatever pre amp?


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Most definitely. All sources including mini-players will have an output stage which can drastically affect signal reproduction. A preamp has a beefier output stage which by itself will pay dividends.
 
From my experiences with pre-amps. Until you decide to spend a little more then around $100~200 most all of the lower priced ones are about the same. I like Nad if going in this price range. Yamaha is another and even Kenwood made a nice vintage black faced model (C-1) no headphone jack being the only drawback.

Barney
 
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That cable isn't a bad idea. There is a Kenwoods basic c2 near me for 100$ in supposedly good shape that I may jump on. I think I may try something like the Arcam rBlink or Audioengine B1 for connecting my iPhone. Bluetooth DAC. Though the audioquest cable is a thought to consider too.


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Ealyb11 said:
Can you help me understand what exactly a DAC does?
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I don't see that anyone has answered this yet for you. I will try to do this at a simplified/high level, and we can take a deeper dive if you like.

Sound is an analog waveform, so if source material is not already analog (vinyl, tape, legacy OTA Am/fm) then somewhere between the digital source and the speakers /transducers there must be a conversion from digital to analog - hence the Digital to Analog Converter (DAC)

A preamplifier or pre amp or pre is literally something in the chain before (pre) amplification (boosting) of the analog waveforms from so called line level (low) to so called speaker level (high) signal amplitude. The pre function is largely two-fold: it switches between multiple sources, and provides a volume control.

Since you have a TT, you also need a function performed by a phono preamp or so called phono stage. The signal produced by the cartridge/needle is extremely small, and itself must be boosted just to get to line level required by the preamp. Also, when the record grooves are cut, the low levels have been reduced because of cutting head issues, and the highs have been emphasized, all according to a standard protocol set as the so called Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) curve. So the phono pre applies the inverse of that Emphasis/de-emphasis boosting the lows and cutting the highs by applying the so called RIAA equalization curve, returning what is then a flat frequency response in a line level signal ready for the preamp and amp.

So, now you need box(es) to perform those functions, which could be three separate single function device, or those functions could be combined in any combination in one or more multi-function box(es).

Sorry it got a little long, hopefully still easy to follow.
 
I've been using a cambridge a500 integrated amp as a pre and am very happy with it. Very clean sound. I've tried a bunch of different budget preamps and this unit has worked the best for me. You can typically get them for around 100.
 
Check out Emotiva's web site. I'm not necessarily recommending them although they are a good value for budget gear. Anyway they have amps, preamps, DAC/pres, Phono pres and integrated amps. You can look and read about the differences in each.

I use DACs because I stream music from a Squeezebox Touch and I get better sound using a stand alone DAC.

cubdog
 
As mentioned previously, the Acurus L10 or LS11 are hard to beat in the 200- 250 price range. The Acurus RL11 (with remote control) has been selling for around $300 recently. There is one on audiogon now for this price. All of these pre's use quality Noble or Alps potentiometers for both the volume and balance, discrete voltage reg's for L & R channels and the highly regarded Toshiba audio Jfets for output devices.

For a little more $350 - 400 you can move up to one of the Aragon pre's. I bought an Aragon 28k w/orig. remote for $368 off of Ebay a few months back.

None of the Mondial pre's have Phono stages built in except for the orig. 24k (not the SP version). It should be noted however that the 24k SP comes with the highly touted and very expensive Penny and Giles volume potentiometer as standard issue.

The old Mondial pre's (Acurus/Aragon) are all rock solid, I have been dealing with them for > 20 years and I've only seen two Acurus pre's that had stopped working. Occasionally one of the first gen Aragon components will show up with a dead outboard power supply. They were not a great design so this is to be expected after 25+ years. Replace the external supply and the component is good as new. I have never seen a dead second gen power supply though, the triangular steel ones that is, and they are all 20+ years old now.

In addition, the old Haflers are hard to beat for the price. The DH-110, SE100 & 915 are most notable. All three of them used quality Noble volume potentiometers. The latter two used JFET output stages, the DH-110 is a straight bipolar transistor design. Only the DH-110 offers an integrated phono. The phono was an optional add-on board for the SE100 & 915. My favorite of the three is the SE100 because it can be purchased so cheaply, usually $100 or less. The only caveat to the Hafler SE100 IMO is that it requires recapping to get the most out of it. Because the SE100 was the budget pre from Hafler the bean counters really had their way with the parts choices inside and it hurt the stock units sound quality. Hafler used polycarb film caps throughout in the SE-100 even for the output coupling caps. However if you can run a soldering iron then for about $15 - 20 in new Wima PP caps and electrolytics you can really make the SE100 sing.

I do not have a lot of experience with the old Adcom pre's except for the GFP-750 which is well out of your price range at > $750. A very nice Nelson Pass pre though... :D
 
Anyone have any thoughts on Arcam gear? I have seen a couple C31 pres for just around 350$ in my area.


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Second for Acurus

I would second Mondialfan on the Acurus pres. I have one and it's been a much better piece than the SAE and Yamahas I also have. It has good parts and more importantly can be upgraded well. It's highly desired by budget audiophiles so it might cost 300-400 but is worth the investment for the long term.
 
Arcams have a great reputation, personally I've never heard their stuff. What I can recommend that hasn't made the list yet is the B&K Pro-5 (or the Pro-10, it's big brother). They can be had cheap and are high quality.
 
Not familiar with your amp. Does it have input level controls? If so, you can just add a multi input selector for hi-level inputs and use the amp's control. If you want to use a phono, you can get a dedicated phono preamp and take the output and plug it into the multi selector. Unless you need tone controls, mono switching or text output, this will work fine in most cases.

You can also look for a Marantz 1060 integrated amp. Pull the pins and use it as a preamp. On a price vs quality scale when they came out many were sold just to used as a preamp and even today a goodly number still are being used that way. If you want fm, then do the same with the Advent 300 receiver or Marantz 2230 receiver. The 2230 has the amp of the 1060.
 
FreeOrange said:
Arcams have a great reputation, personally I've never heard their stuff. What I can recommend that hasn't made the list yet is the B&K Pro-5 (or the Pro-10, it's big brother). They can be had cheap and are high quality.
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I like the B&K components as well, but I cannot recommend over other offerings. My first foray into high-end audio and B&K came when I bought a new set of Infinity Reference Six speakers back in the early 1990's. When I got them home I found out my old Pioneer dolby surround receiver (a VSX-5000) wouldn't run them at a volume above a normal conversation. I considered buying a Denon receiver, but after sitting in a local hifi shop and listening to a B&K Pro-10MC connected to a pair of B&K M200 Sonata mono amps with the optional balanced in/out's and I was hooked. I splurged for the whole setup and was quite content for a couple of years until I spent time listening to a few of my friends audio systems. Then my ear started to wander.

I listened to the then current Hafler 915/9500 combo and Aragon 18k/4004 MkII combo both of which seemed to have better definition and sound quality than my B&K combo. I took the Aragon combo home on loan for 24 hours to audition it with my speakers and there was little doubt that it was a better sounding setup. I bought the Aragon components and sold the B&K gear. All those years I never gave it a second thought until about 18 mos back. I found a last generation Pro-10mc, the one with the contoured face plate. It was missing the external power supply (not a big deal its just a transformer in box). My nostalgic side kicked in and I bought the Pro-10MC and refurb'd it. I replaced the old electrolytics, took the Noble pot apart and cleaned it with Deoxit and built a new external supply with a slightly more powerful toroidal transformer than the original.

This time I had an Acurus L10, an Aragon 18k and an upgraded Hafler SE100 to compare it against. All of my Pre's have been refurb'd in the same manner as the Pro-10MC. All of them were connected to my amps with the RCA connections. I'm sad to say that the Pro-10MC still seemed to be lacking in resolution when compared to the other pre's I compared it against. I ended up keeping the B&K for about a month and selling it.

The Pro-10MC sells for around $250 in decent condition. It does have a built in phono stage, so if that is a priority then it may be a good deal for someone. IMO however the linestage is lacking when compared to other used offerings in the same price range. If you can find one locally (i.e. craigslist) for a steal of a deal then I'd say jump on it. But if you are going to pay normal used market prices then I'd opt for something different.

It should also be noted that there are different versions of the Pro-10 out there. The very earliest versions had internal power supplies and a much simpler topology. The later versions seemed to have been massively redesigned based on the pictures I have seen of the internals of the original version. When I bought the last Pro10 I contacted ATI which is now the owner of all things B&K and their support tech looked for any schematics or documentation for the Pro-10 for me and could not find anything. He told me that the documentation that they got from the buyout of B&K was in total disarray and that there was precious little info/schematics that they were able to recover. He said it was like the company was gutted long before they took it over, pretty sad really....

Long story I know, but I thought I would chime in on the B&K gear based on my history with it. :D
 
I can second the suggestions for Hafler gear. I have a 945 Pre-Tuner that sounds really good still along with it's matching 9180 amp.

As long as you have a Brand Name in mind, use this search engine to find all sales

http://www.hifishark.com/
 
Ealyb11 said:
Anyone have any thoughts on Arcam gear? I have seen a couple C31 pres for just around 350$ in my area.


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The FMJ C31 is not well documented on AK but is one amazing pre amp. The c31 operates on par with the better Aragon units that Mondialfan mentioned.
Each input is level adjustable, the volume control is digital and fairly precise. arcam sold an optional phono stage board that could be retrofit into the chasis. That board cost a few hundred alone. Overall its a fairly transparent preamp that does a great job . Aesthetically , its a very clean design. As far as the prices you mentioned in your area? Thats a giveaway price for a c31. Id be running to buy all of them at that price. :).
 
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