Is a stellar unbalanced preamp good enough…?

[greg fox]

I’d really like a sub $2000 preamp with a good phono stage, and balanced inputs. I suppose I could do without the phono for the time being, and get an out board later. I don’t like the idea of dealing with tubes either.

I’ve been considering used preamps like the Threshold SL10 or Motif MC-9 (w phono board), but I am concerned about the lack of balanced inputs. I’ve read many threads on this, and they seem to edge in the favor of balanced inputs, provided the internal implementation is done well. I’ve also listened to a lot of Paul McGowan quite a bit… I’m close to getting a Moon Neo CD player with balanced outputs, and figured it would be best to use them.

The Classé Audio DR-6R is not truly balanced, Plinius Audio M16 has XLRs but try to find one for sale… and the Spectral Audio DMC-20 is just too expensive. Plus a dealer told me service is not the greatest.

Currently, I only have a Phase Linear 2000 II and a GFA-555 I driving ADS L-880 speakers

 

[ET16]

I have a Bryston preamp with XLR outs.

 

[Blue Shadow]

does balanced bring much to the party? Short cable runs, does it matter? Haven't done balanced and only read a bit about benefits for longer cable runs with the shielding.

 

[SaSi]

Balanced inputs and outputs become relevant only in a studio environment with lots of equipment and electrical noise. In such an environment, balanced cables help reduce or even eliminate picking up interference.
But in a home environment with a few components, you don't have a reason to look for balanced interconnections.
As stated, some people get to put some facts out of context, either out of ignorance or malice, and create myths and expectations.

PS. Paul is fun to listen to most of the time - he is a good story teller. But he is into high-end audio and need to promote his story. For example, in his latest video about balanced input/output equipment, he tells truths and half truths.

At 2:30 he explains in the wrong way. Balanced inputs are NOT quieter. They pick up less noise from the environment, if it's noisy. There's a big difference.

 

[edwyun]

PS. Paul is fun to listen to most of the time - he is a good story teller. But he is into high-end audio and need to promote his story.

Plus he has no background or expertise in many things he says.

Sone of his products are decent though.

 

[edwyun]

You may want to look for a Jeff Rowland Capri S (not the newer S2). Used, they should go for slightly under $2000. The separate phono card is very good as well.

 

[greg fox]

I did come across a Bryston BP25-MC for $1,063.00 and a Capri S (machined front panel used for $1695 also I’ve seen nice Jeff Rowland Coherence or Motif units.

Forgoing just the XLR, opens up the market so much. I’ve got a word doc with 30 manufactures so far. I find most of the new stuff to be quite ugly, plus I really don’t like the one knob does all user interfaces. It’s funny, but I just can’t get over the Mac’s plastic toggle switches. I’m really curious it my Phase Linear will sound with a modern CD player. I’ve been manually opening and loading my Revox b225, though it sounds different from a cheap DVD player I have as a simple temporary solution.

If it is just the rejection of interference, I wonder why they are included on source components, unless it is just to allow for good separation of a source from the rest of the system. My desire for XLR’s comes mostly from the fact that the CD player comes with it, assuming a high end unit would benefit from its use.

 

[damacman]

There are three types of preamps with XLR inputs:

1 - ones which have those as a convenience
2 - ones which have those as a tool to reduce the likelihood of noise being introduced in a long cable run (differential)
3 - and ones which have those as a necessity as they are fully balanced by design

Connecting a unbalanced CDP to an unbalanced preamp via XLR cables really has no tangible benefit which does not surround a long cable run between them.

 

[greg fox]

There are three types of preamps with XLR inputs:

1 - ones which have those as a convenience
2 - ones which have those as a tool to reduce the likelihood of noise being introduced in a long cable run (differential)
3 - and ones which have those as a necessity as they are fully balanced by design

Connecting a unbalanced CDP to an unbalanced preamp via XLR cables really has no tangible benefit which does not surround a long cable run between them.

what is the difference between 1 and 3? I'm assuming you mean truly balanced in all three. I thought "differential" was just how fully balanced units worked, via internal circuitry (i.e. common-mode rejection).

 

[greg fox]

I found this interesting
http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/balanced.php

 

[greg fox]

Transport output is electrical digital S/PDIF via AES/EBU connection (XLR connection type)
DAC output is electrical audio via balanced connection (XLR connection type)

Are AES/EBU cables also twisted pair, since it is also electrical singnals?

 

[ehoove]

I use a Audio Research LS17SE preamp. I started using ARC preamps with the purchase of a SP14 preamp, due to the need for 2 sets of balanced outputs to run to my crossovers via 26 foot balanced cables. I moved to a ARC LS15 (6922 tubes), then moved to a ARC LS16MkII (6H30 tubes) and am currently running the ARC LS17SE. (6H30 tubes) These preamps have 2 sets of balanced outputs as well as 2 sets of balanced inputs. I run my PS Audio GCPH phono preamp into one set, and my Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD player into the other set utilizing the balanced outputs of those units with stellar results.

Also of note is the fact that the balanced outputs offer 18 db of gain as opposed to the single ended outputs offering only 12 db of gain.

The Electro Harmonix 6H30 tubes have a 4K-5K hour life expectancy, with the 6H30DR variant at 10K hours..

Regards,
Jim

 

[W9TR]

Unless you are running really long interconnects differences in the equipment character itself will swamp out any differences due to balanced or single ended I/O.

In some designs the balanced I/O may sound worse due to having more electronics in the chain.

So to answer your original question, YES!

 

[alejandro44]

I’d really like a sub $2000 preamp with a good phono stage, and balanced inputs. I suppose I could do without the phono for the time being, and get an out board later. I don’t like the idea of dealing with tubes either.

I’ve been considering used preamps like the Threshold SL10 or Motif MC-9 (w phono board), but I am concerned about the lack of balanced inputs. I’ve read many threads on this, and they seem to edge in the favor of balanced inputs, provided the internal implementation is done well. I’ve also listened to a lot of Paul McGowan quite a bit… I’m close to getting a Moon Neo CD player with balanced outputs, and figured it would be best to use them.

The Classé Audio DR-6R is not truly balanced, Plinius Audio M16 has XLRs but try to find one for sale… and the Spectral Audio DMC-20 is just too expensive. Plus a dealer told me service is not the greatest.

I have a Plinius M16 pre (and an SA100mk3 amp, w/ Ultimate Upgrade by Ralph Abramo of pliniusaudiorepair).
The M16 has XLRs but is not a truly balanced design. However it is a wonderful solid sweet pre. I live in NZ and got the designer's own copy with his ( (Gary Morrison) special voodoo waved in and over it. His new productions at PureAudio.co.nz show all his new products with RCAs only. He also makes a Statement on why he no longer puts XLRs on his units. Says RCA/unbalanced is better for tech reasons I am not equipped to understand....but he DID put these on his older units such as the M16. Ralph (above) believes XLRs provide a lower noise floor. This does not help me (both professionals have their positions). Currently I have Kimber Select RCAs between pre and amp. The DAMN startling and welcome $1,500 Ultimate change to my amp still has me swooning from the change. I may or may not change from RCA to XLRs for pre to amp on my next upgrade. Will probably A/B some Analysis Plus Apex in both formats to see for my own ears which is mo betta. Lotta $ for that upgrade!
Also the phono stage in the M16 is quite good. Were you to get one without the phono board, it's about a $600US part if you can find it and have installed. It is a 1999 design. Otherwise the newest Dynavector or just get the cheaper but great Shiit Mani and cough up the dosh for an upgraded psu for it (Swagman Lab is Chinesium but OK). I am just one lucky audiofool to have this pre/amp combo. I used to be an ARC or VTL tube freak but have since recovered. Even though Plinius is headquartered here in Christchurch, NZ, there are plenty of USA techs who can heal them. And there's always Ralph who will upgrade it. Happy hunting! Alejandro

 

[alejandro44]

I’d really like a sub $2000 preamp with a good phono stage, and balanced inputs. I suppose I could do without the phono for the time being, and get an out board later. I don’t like the idea of dealing with tubes either.

I’ve been considering used preamps like the Threshold SL10 or Motif MC-9 (w phono board), but I am concerned about the lack of balanced inputs. I’ve read many threads on this, and they seem to edge in the favor of balanced inputs, provided the internal implementation is done well. I’ve also listened to a lot of Paul McGowan quite a bit… I’m close to getting a Moon Neo CD player with balanced outputs, and figured it would be best to use them.

The Classé Audio DR-6R is not truly balanced, Plinius Audio M16 has XLRs but try to find one for sale… and the Spectral Audio DMC-20 is just too expensive. Plus a dealer told me service is not the greatest.

Currently, I only have a Phase Linear 2000 II and a GFA-555 I driving ADS L-880 speakers

I have a Plinius M16 pre (and an SA100mk3 amp, w/ Ultimate Upgrade by Ralph Abramo of pliniusaudiorepair).
The M16 has XLRs but is not a truly balanced design. However it is a wonderful solid sweet pre. I live in NZ and got the designer's own copy with his ( (Gary Morrison) special voodoo waved in and over it. His new productions at PureAudio.co.nz show all his new products with RCAs only. He also makes a Statement on why he no longer puts XLRs on his units. Says RCA/unbalanced is better for tech reasons I am not equipped to understand....but he DID put these on his older units such as the M16. Ralph (above) believes XLRs provide a lower noise floor. This does not help me (both professionals have their positions). Currently I have Kimber Select RCAs between pre and amp. The DAMN startling and welcome $1,500 Ultimate change to my amp still has me swooning from the change. I may or may not change from RCA to XLRs for pre to amp on my next upgrade. Will probably A/B some Analysis Plus Apex in both formats to see for my own ears which is mo betta. Lotta $ for that upgrade!
Also the phono stage in the M16 is quite good. Were you to get one without the phono board, it's about a $600US part if you can find it and have installed. It is a 1999 design. Otherwise the newest Dynavector or just get the cheaper but great Shiit Mani and cough up the dosh for an upgraded psu for it (Swagman Lab is Chinesium but OK). I am just one lucky audiofool to have this pre/amp combo. I used to be an ARC or VTL tube freak but have since recovered. Even though Plinius is headquartered here in Christchurch, NZ, there are plenty of USA techs who can heal them. And there's always Ralph who will upgrade it. Happy hunting! Alejandro

 

[greg fox]

I have a Plinius M16 pre (and an SA100mk3 amp, w/ Ultimate Upgrade by Ralph Abramo of pliniusaudiorepair).
The M16 has XLRs but is not a truly balanced design. However it is a wonderful solid sweet pre. I live in NZ and got the designer's own copy with his ( (Gary Morrison) special voodoo waved in and over it. His new productions at PureAudio.co.nz show all his new products with RCAs only. He also makes a Statement on why he no longer puts XLRs on his units. Says RCA/unbalanced is better for tech reasons I am not equipped to understand....but he DID put these on his older units such as the M16. Ralph (above) believes XLRs provide a lower noise floor. This does not help me (both professionals have their positions). Currently I have Kimber Select RCAs between pre and amp. The DAMN startling and welcome $1,500 Ultimate change to my amp still has me swooning from the change. I may or may not change from RCA to XLRs for pre to amp on my next upgrade. Will probably A/B some Analysis Plus Apex in both formats to see for my own ears which is mo betta. Lotta $ for that upgrade!
Also the phono stage in the M16 is quite good. Were you to get one without the phono board, it's about a $600US part if you can find it and have installed. It is a 1999 design. Otherwise the newest Dynavector or just get the cheaper but great Shiit Mani and cough up the dosh for an upgraded psu for it (Swagman Lab is Chinesium but OK). I am just one lucky audiofool to have this pre/amp combo. I used to be an ARC or VTL tube freak but have since recovered. Even though Plinius is headquartered here in Christchurch, NZ, there are plenty of USA techs who can heal them. And there's always Ralph who will upgrade it. Happy hunting! Alejandro

thanks for all that great info!
I just plunked my money down for the Moon CD player and DAC. I've read that it sounds better with RCAs too. I'll let it burn in and see how it goes with the phase linear for now and keep searching.

 

[greg fox]

Update:
I've been living with the moon CD player now for a month. I have found no failings with the phase linear. It has transformed my system!!!