Is Hi-Fi dead??
- Thread starter Peter_Klim
- Start date
Vintage_Hi-F
Vintage Audio Geek
I will argue with that. Trustfully yes you could by a Marantz or a Sansui back then, but your average Joe blow didn't (if he did we'd be tripping over them right now) they bought your cheap Realistic, Panasonic, BIC, ect which is just the same as walking into a best buy and buying a cheap sony or samsung HT receiver. Things haven't changed that much.
mrt2
Super Member
Nothing wrong with making lemonade out of lemons, but the demise of hi fi is not a good thing for those of us who like good sound and good music. Back in the day, everybody listened to the same records, whether they owned a statement product, or a cheap record changer. There were even audiophile grade, half speed mastered lps and imports for those who really wanted to get that last bit of resolution out of lps. The point is, while interest in hi fi was a niche, it was a mainstream niche in that maybe 1 out of 5 middle class families had at least a decent component stereo, with maybe 1 out of 25 owning something really good.
If interest in good sound really does fall off the map, to where maybe only 1 out of 1,000 middle class households has a decent stereo, none of us will be able to get new music that sounds good at any price; it will all be compressed, lossy mp3s.
Hi Fi is not dead. It's shrinking in numbers but growing in quality.
You can still find plenty of huge, full range speakers if you go to a high end retailer.
There are more high end turntables than I can remember their names. And also a huge number of entry level ones, now that I think about it.
I actually spotted McIntosh gear at one of my local Best Buys. A pilot program that I was told they might spread to more stores. The had some very large speakers, too, and the Magnolia stores have always carried a number of decent to very good speakers.
I've never seen more kids (or older kids like me, in their 30s) at the record stores I frequent. I've been hitting used vinyl stores weekly for 20 years and this is the busiest I've seen them. And..the big change...it's not all used vinyl. The selection of new vinyl is enormous, and the pressing quality seems to be improving from even a year ago. Records did fine in the lull of the '90s, so I have no fear even today if they stop pressing new ones.
The abandonment of the CD is a good thing. It opens the way for the true possibilities of digital to be fulfilled. Higher res digital can sound amazing.
Speaker technology continues to advance. By all accounts, the most recent (very) high end speakers from Magico and Vandersteen, among others, have really changed a lot of perception about what a dynamic loudspeaker can do. That technology, hopefully, will trickle down into something more affordable. In the case of Vandersteen, I really bet it will.
Speaking of Vandersteen...just that one brand is proof that all speakers aren't getting smaller. The Vandersteen II continues to be improved year after year and remains a best seller.
The Chinese audio industry is really coming alive. Some people may not like this, or assume it's all junk, but there are probably more stereo fanatics in Asia that are willing to really pay for serious gear than anywhere else in the world. Check out Grant Fidelity, an AK sponsor. Serious gear there...and beautiful looking, too. Drool...
HT actually seems to be on a decline amongst people willing to spend so decent money on their audio gear. I go into audio stores now, and it's not all HT rooms. Now, it's more like one HT room and a bunch of stereo rooms. There's nothing wrong with HT...I think a lot of people now have separate systems for music and movies.
AK seems to be doing ok..more than ok...every day there seems to be a whole host of introductions.
All I"m trying to say is that I don't believe for a second that Hi Fi is dead. If anything, it's starting to feel like we're entering a hey day.
You can still find plenty of huge, full range speakers if you go to a high end retailer.
There are more high end turntables than I can remember their names. And also a huge number of entry level ones, now that I think about it.
I actually spotted McIntosh gear at one of my local Best Buys. A pilot program that I was told they might spread to more stores. The had some very large speakers, too, and the Magnolia stores have always carried a number of decent to very good speakers.
I've never seen more kids (or older kids like me, in their 30s) at the record stores I frequent. I've been hitting used vinyl stores weekly for 20 years and this is the busiest I've seen them. And..the big change...it's not all used vinyl. The selection of new vinyl is enormous, and the pressing quality seems to be improving from even a year ago. Records did fine in the lull of the '90s, so I have no fear even today if they stop pressing new ones.
The abandonment of the CD is a good thing. It opens the way for the true possibilities of digital to be fulfilled. Higher res digital can sound amazing.
Speaker technology continues to advance. By all accounts, the most recent (very) high end speakers from Magico and Vandersteen, among others, have really changed a lot of perception about what a dynamic loudspeaker can do. That technology, hopefully, will trickle down into something more affordable. In the case of Vandersteen, I really bet it will.
Speaking of Vandersteen...just that one brand is proof that all speakers aren't getting smaller. The Vandersteen II continues to be improved year after year and remains a best seller.
The Chinese audio industry is really coming alive. Some people may not like this, or assume it's all junk, but there are probably more stereo fanatics in Asia that are willing to really pay for serious gear than anywhere else in the world. Check out Grant Fidelity, an AK sponsor. Serious gear there...and beautiful looking, too. Drool...
HT actually seems to be on a decline amongst people willing to spend so decent money on their audio gear. I go into audio stores now, and it's not all HT rooms. Now, it's more like one HT room and a bunch of stereo rooms. There's nothing wrong with HT...I think a lot of people now have separate systems for music and movies.
AK seems to be doing ok..more than ok...every day there seems to be a whole host of introductions.
All I"m trying to say is that I don't believe for a second that Hi Fi is dead. If anything, it's starting to feel like we're entering a hey day.
wizargoz
Super Member
Electronic sound and music was an evolution, and continues to evolve. We used to have to crank the Grammophone, and that "horn" speaker wasn't very good. Then radio brought us static and music- amazingly, through the air! Everything mono until the fifties, then stereo, than solid state, then the peak of Hi-Fi in the sixties and seventies. I think that era was the best- and it appears most of us buy gear from that era- because they really were trying to perfect the sound: not just the gear, but the media too (Quad or audio spatializer, anyone?).
Then mass production got the better of the industry, and the gear started devolving (yes, it's the correct word) into smaller and lighter and cheaper units, until we come to the BPC and Ipod's of today. That 's the Market, which rules all- but music hasn't gone away, and as it evolves so will the music players.
But "Hi-Fi", as perfected in the 50's-80's, will never die. I play NWA's "Straight Outta Compton", Duane Eddy's "The Twangs The Thang", Herbie Hancock and Doc Watson, and they all sound GREAT on my 70's era system. So, no, Hi-Fi will never die- because the music will never die.
Then mass production got the better of the industry, and the gear started devolving (yes, it's the correct word) into smaller and lighter and cheaper units, until we come to the BPC and Ipod's of today. That 's the Market, which rules all- but music hasn't gone away, and as it evolves so will the music players.
But "Hi-Fi", as perfected in the 50's-80's, will never die. I play NWA's "Straight Outta Compton", Duane Eddy's "The Twangs The Thang", Herbie Hancock and Doc Watson, and they all sound GREAT on my 70's era system. So, no, Hi-Fi will never die- because the music will never die.
marc mc
Super Member
I feel the massive amounts of Marantz, Pioneer, Sansui etc that have become available in the past 10 years more than proves that they were mainstream and mass produced back in the day. But my point was they were sold to people that cared very little for the sound. They just bought a stereo.
BTW when I got into audio in the early 80's those brands were considered mainstream and they were not desirable.
marc mc
I read about the death of hi fi all the time.
What exactly would it's death look like? A number of people hear don't own a single piece of gear made after 1980. My tube tech won't run an amp or speakers made after about 1965. Yet they're still playing music.
Certainly with AK, if you kill off the current high end it wouldn't change much of anything. It would be like the rapture happening while you're at a devil worshiping party. Who would know?
What exactly would it's death look like? A number of people hear don't own a single piece of gear made after 1980. My tube tech won't run an amp or speakers made after about 1965. Yet they're still playing music.
Certainly with AK, if you kill off the current high end it wouldn't change much of anything. It would be like the rapture happening while you're at a devil worshiping party. Who would know?
mrt2
Super Member
I appreciate your optimism John, but let us not get carried away. While it could be that changes in technology have allowed this hobby to thrive even though we are more spread out, audio as a mainstream hobby is shrinking. You mentioned that, so I view this as ambiguous, sort of glass half full at best.
The good is:
Lots of used gear both recent and vintage.
Surprisingly good moderately priced new gear.
Bargains often available if you buy online.
Online communities lik AK allow us to communicate in a way not possible in the past. So you may not need to rely on advice from a good, specialty audio place.
Real advancement in speakers, digital, and, surprisingly, Turntables in the last 15 years. Often moderate priced speakers can sound surprisingly good, and if you get something reputable, it is hard to make a big mistake.
The bad:
Outside of major cities, few places to audition gear. Back in the early 80s, my suburban New Jersey community had at least 7 or 8 specialty audio places, and that is not counting places in Philadelphia. Today, only a handful of really small places where I currently live in Wisconsin, and several have closed recently.
Fewer people actually into audio. Often you have to buy gear without a decent audition.
The cost for the really good stuff has skyrocketed. As recently as the 90s, a flagship high end speaker was maybe $4,000 or $5000, today that is often entry level for high end stuff. Today, statement products going for $30 thousand, to $50 thousand are not unheard of. In the mid 90s when I got back into audio, a nice, small british amp went for $500, while a higher end integrated could be had for maybe $800 or $900. $1,000 to $1,500 would get you American made separates. Today, a good British made integrated goes for $1,500, so the person in the market who wants to spend $500 has to go Asian.
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marc mc
Super Member
It would be like the rapture happening while you're at a devil worshiping party. Who would know?
Or in LA
marc mc
rifftrax
mix-meister
I'm not all that thrilled with the music currently out anyway TBH. I make my own and mostly listen to that so I don't worry too much. There will always be people recording music on the other hand because there will always be more movies to be made and heavens knows they have the budget to pay for the equipment composers need for those project...
You also have to remember that the mass-commercialization and music frenzy of the 80's paired with "technology" and "dsp" and "microchips" caused every manufacturer to lower their quality into the gutter and run with POS BPC models across the board. And we know those sold quite well due to the sheer numbers of people that are now dumping that junk into thrifts and the garbage. Sure - everyone was listening to music due to the new 'walkmans' and MTV starting up and stereos becoming really common-place in the home, but it sure as hell wasn't good for people who were looking for quality stuff. In fact, it was awful.
Let hi-fi die I say. I will collect all the expensive gear to last a lifetime dumped into the thrift stores, I don't think I'll have to worry after that. I have enough friends making their own much classier and better music overall that I'll listen to for me to worry about commercial recording industry death ramifications anyway.
Make no mistake...I do feel that it's not a mainstream obsession, at all, anymore. But unlike some, I don't think that's a bad thing. Quality can win out, and gear doesn't have to be watered down to appeal to the masses (or their wives).
You have more experience with high end speakers than I...How do you think something like the PSB Synchrony at $5000 compares to what you could get in the '90s for that? Or a Dali Helicon 800 or one of the more recent Harbeths in that price range? I honestly don't know..I was looking, at my maximum budget, at NHT SuperZeros, used, in the '90s as I was paying my way through college.
I agree that the prices of some stuff have gotten out of hand...I look at the Martin Logan CLX and wonder who pays $20,000 for them, or the Magicos and Vandersteen 7s and the big silver Kef Reference towers that cost as much or more as a Mercedes.
But the fact that somebody must be payin $50,000 for a pair of speakers says to me that Hi Fi isn't dead. It may be well out of the mainstream, but it's alive and well.
mrt2
Super Member
I wasn't buying a lot of gear in the mid to late 80s, but I accept your narrative. It did seem like a lot of the mainstream gear sold in the 80s wasn't great. But, didn't the 80s also see the birth of high end audio? I know that when I got back into this in the 90s, all the great names of my youth had either declined but were gone, but in most cases were replaced by other venerable brands.
rifftrax
mix-meister
The 90's definitely saw a huge push of manufactures, small garage companies who had gotten really tired of seeing crap thrown on the masses. Just another way the scale balances itself out.
The supposed hi-fi industry "dieing" only really leaves room for a rebirth, and history tells us that such resurgences only happen even more on the extreme of better technology, innovation, sound, etc. When people get fed up of something, they tend to try their darndest to create something better themselves or die trying.
Look at ebay - ebay is positively flooded with people buying/selling rather decent 2-channel components. I doubt that's going to just suddenly stop.
Most of the gear I'm currently running came out in the early/mid '80s. My amp and preamp are from the early '80s. My Kef Reference speakers early/mid '80s. My Luxman integrated amp that drives them, about 1980. My previous main speakers, Dahlquist DQ-30s, about 1989.
The thing is...none of this gear was mainstream, even back then. But I'd put any of it against almost anything made in the mainstream audio heyday of the '70s. The mainstream hi fi industry died the moment Dolby Pro-logic came out, in my opinion. That's when people started hooking their VCRs to their stereo. Which was no longer stereo..it was home theater. And I bet more people watch movies at home than sit and listen to an album from beginning to end.
The cost of getting good hi fi gear has actually gone down both in terms of modern and "real" dollars. You can buy pair of KRK or similar speakers at Guitar Center for a couple of hundred dollars that IMO sound as good as many high dollar audiophile speakers from both the past and today; they have excellent clarity and tone and also the ability to do the big soundstage thing. And some of the cheap chip-amp receivers and amplifiers sound very good.
Those chip-amp HT recievers that Panasonic and JVC made had excellent sound but last time I checked they'd stopped making them, I wonder why.
Those chip-amp HT recievers that Panasonic and JVC made had excellent sound but last time I checked they'd stopped making them, I wonder why.
I noticed that, too, because I was going to buy one. Now I hear that NAD is coming out with a new digital amp of some sort that costs about 5 grand. Hmm...
Maybe somebody from Krell showed up at Panny HQ with a couple of goons and baseball bats.
mrt2
Super Member
I don't know that I have that much more experience with high end speakers than you. I have not heard Dali or Harbeths. In the 90s, I auditioned a lot of the better Tannoy, Dynaudio, B & W speakers.
It is hard to say whether $5k today buys you sound as good as $5k 14 years ago. That is certainly what the manufacturers and retailers will claim, that their mid range and entry level products have incorporated technology that was only available in statement products of the past. They may be right; it is hard to say judging from memory.
The problem is, the high end has been pricing itself out of existence. In the 90s, the high end retailer could show a customer a statement system that retailed for $7 to $10 thousand, but assure the customer that they could actually get something very musical for $1,500 or so. Today, that same retailer will have a statement system retailing for $25,000, with "real world" systems retailing for $6,000 to $10,000. The customer sees this and just walks out.
The only option for high end places is to sell more mass market stuff, but you can get that over the internet.
I mentioned this problem a couple of years ago to Lev over at Lev's audio in Milwaukee. He closed his doors in May.
Peter_Klim
Well-Known Member
I've noticed the trend as well, but haven't been in the market so didn't really look into what a mid level system would entail these days. I know that I'm really sick of reading in the audio magazines that anything costing $5000 is the 'best deal in audio today". Give me a break. Just admit that it's expensive.
You can still build a system for a few grand, though. Buy a Peachtree Audio Nova, a pair of monitor audio silver towers, and a DAC to run off of your computer...I bet that would sound a lot better than some of what was out a decade ago for $2500. And at least in Chicago, I could hear that in person before buying. Sadly, I know that's not the case in most cities.