Is it Live or is it Memorex?

[damacman]

Last week, a friend invited me to a blues club he frequents. So, I went and we had a great time. I left knowing that my audio system had a number of shortcomings - some not so easily addressed.

On this board, I often read posts that utilize industry jargon, audio terminology, and lever specifications in an effort to support arguments to obtain great sound . . . live sound. Today more than ever, I'm convinced that none of that **** means . . . well ****. Don't believe me? Then, get your ass out there and listen to a talented band where the sound is ON.

Now, in the case of this little blues club, I couldn't see much of the gear - save a single EV top (15/horn) sitting on its side on a shelf and a fairly old mixing board to the right of the "nook" where the band played - nobody attended it and nobody touched it all night. When we walked in, I just couldn't believe how good the band sounded. The drummer was SO unbelievably over the top, the bass and guitar players killer, and the woman singing was just remarkable. Nearly immediately, I forgot about what gear could be achieving this level of playback and was just immersed in the performance. I clung to that stool for two hours - thinking that it was the sweet spot in the venue. [It wasn't.]

First of all, if you wanted to recreate such a performance in your space, your system need to be able to play effortlessly at about 110dB. In addition, you'll need stacks of drivers capable of serious displacement. Traditional HiFi speakers simply can't do this. Even my XRT22s with bridged MC2600s can't - not at that level. [Nor could my big Altecs with strapped MC2300s.] I'd likely need to add six or even eight mutually coupled 18" woofers in vented cabinets tuned to around 30Hz just to reproduce the energy from the drum kit like I could feel it there. Now, some of that was a function of where the drummer was and how this loaded into the venue. Interestingly enough, it didn't look like a whole lot of thought went into where the band would be when they set this place up. Oh a band? Put them . . . there. It just worked. Man did it work.

Three months ago, I saw Lenny Kravitz play Comerica theater. We ended up in the center suites on the 2nd level - directly above the sound board. The sound was so over the top, but you expect that given a venue like that and their investment in the sound system. The bottom end was so smooth and extended (reminded me of Pink Floyd in '88) and just effortless. There was so much first octave bass that the entire 2nd level was bouncing in unison with the kick drum. I've never experienced that before. [I set my iPhone on the ledge and recorded about 30sec and the video is bouncing the entire time. Insane.]

Listen, I love HiFi. Always have. But, I love music first and foremost. My senses were on tilt in both venues. And, I walked out of both with no ringing in my ears. I did have a slight bit of TTS after Lenny but that's to be expected given the level they played at over that time.

While I certainly have moments in my space, it's just not the same when playing music like this. Keep it in perspective.

 

[fill35u]

On this board, I often read posts that utilize industry jargon, audio terminology, and lever specifications in an effort to support arguments to obtain great sound . . . live sound. Today more than ever, I'm convinced that none of that **** means . . . well ****.

The requirements for obtaining great life-like sound have been known for a long time- but more often than not, they fall on deaf ears around here. And a great many pursue, and are satisfied with, their own personal euphony instead of realism.

Nearly immediately, I forgot about what gear could be achieving this level of playback and was just immersed in the performance. I clung to that stool for two hours - thinking that it was the sweet spot in the venue. [It wasn't.]

Most pro gear is high sensitivity, high power, and controlled directivity.

First of all, if you wanted to recreate such a performance in your space, your system need to be able to play effortlessly at about 110dB. In addition, you'll need stacks of drivers capable of serious displacement. Traditional HiFi speakers simply can't do this.

Yes, you're definitely not going to get there with dome tweeters and 6.5" woofers- unless you sit in the nearfield (and the speaker integrates well at that distance).

I'd likely need to add six or even eight mutually coupled 18" woofers in vented cabinets tuned to around 30Hz just to reproduce the energy from the drum kit like I could feel it there.

Or a couple of really good 24"... In a typical living room, you'd need maybe four high-excursion 18" drivers to achieve THX reference level bottom octave. The kick drum felt energy is better handled by port tuning in the 50-100 Hz range (like most pro gear).

There was so much first octave bass that the entire 2nd level was bouncing in unison with the kick drum. I've never experienced that before.

Reminds me of a friend who turned me on to Cameron Carpenter, the pipe organ virtuoso. After he saw him in concert, he reported how interesting it was that a pipe organ was much less powerful in person compared to how we had been reproducing it on our home systems...

If realistic bandwidth at realistic volume with low distortion is your goal, then yes, what you'll end up with won't look like the typical home stereo system.

 

[Poultrygeist]

You lost me at 110 dbs.

 

[biscuithead]

Last week, a friend invited me to a blues club he frequents. So, I went and we had a great time. I left knowing that my audio system had a number of shortcomings - some not so easily addressed.

On this board, I often read posts that utilize industry jargon, audio terminology, and lever specifications in an effort to support arguments to obtain great sound . . . live sound. Today more than ever, I'm convinced that none of that **** means . . . well ****. Don't believe me? Then, get your ass out there and listen to a talented band where the sound is ON.

Now, in the case of this little blues club, I couldn't see much of the gear - save a single EV top (15/horn) sitting on its side on a shelf and a fairly old mixing board to the right of the "nook" where the band played - nobody attended it and nobody touched it all night. When we walked in, I just couldn't believe how good the band sounded. The drummer was SO unbelievably over the top, the bass and guitar players killer, and the woman singing was just remarkable. Nearly immediately, I forgot about what gear could be achieving this level of playback and was just immersed in the performance. I clung to that stool for two hours - thinking that it was the sweet spot in the venue. [It wasn't.]

First of all, if you wanted to recreate such a performance in your space, your system need to be able to play effortlessly at about 110dB. In addition, you'll need stacks of drivers capable of serious displacement. Traditional HiFi speakers simply can't do this. Even my XRT22s with bridged MC2600s can't - not at that level. [Nor could my big Altecs with strapped MC2300s.] I'd likely need to add six or even eight mutually coupled 18" woofers in vented cabinets tuned to around 30Hz just to reproduce the energy from the drum kit like I could feel it there. Now, some of that was a function of where the drummer was and how this loaded into the venue. Interestingly enough, it didn't look like a whole lot of thought went into where the band would be when they set this place up. Oh a band? Put them . . . there. It just worked. Man did it work.

Three months ago, I saw Lenny Kravitz play Comerica theater. We ended up in the center suites on the 2nd level - directly above the sound board. The sound was so over the top, but you expect that given a venue like that and their investment in the sound system. The bottom end was so smooth and extended (reminded me of Pink Floyd in '88) and just effortless. There was so much first octave bass that the entire 2nd level was bouncing in unison with the kick drum. I've never experienced that before. [I set my iPhone on the ledge and recorded about 30sec and the video is bouncing the entire time. Insane.]

Listen, I love HiFi. Always have. But, I love music first and foremost. My senses were on tilt in both venues. And, I walked out of both with no ringing in my ears. I did have a slight bit of TTS after Lenny but that's to be expected given the level they played at over that time.

While I certainly have moments in my space, it's just not the same when playing music like this. Keep it in perspective.

I volunteer at a local theater in the little town where I hang my hat. About 8 years ago I was lucky enough to help install their new sound system... it’s a 700 seat 1920s gem.
A lot of my “audio” friends laugh at me when I go to the Tom Petty tribute shows, the small acts... I just want to hear and feel live music! I live in a small Mecca for live music, always a live show within 20 miles.

I would gladly trade all of my audio gear for more time to see live shows! Live music ! ... home audio is just a poultice for the addiction of live music lust!

Get out of your house, if you can, and go see a show!

 

[KarlK]

Reminds me of a friend who turned me on to Cameron Carpenter, the pipe organ virtuoso. After he saw him in concert, he reported how interesting it was that a pipe organ was much less powerful in person compared to how we had been reproducing it on our home systems...

That depends on the acoustics of the venue where the organ is played, and on the organ itself and how it's set up. I have attended a numberof concerts. I had a relative who was a music professor and concert/church organist. I remember when I was a teen I occasionally attended our Episcopalian cathedral just to listen to him play the organ (I'm not a religious person let's just say) and almost always felt disappointed by the lack of "oooph" from the instrument. The relative in question was my uncle who I didn't speak with often as he was much older than his siblings an an intimidating, overbearing man or so I thought of him at the time. But a certain Christmas night when he had a couple of drinks in him I asked why the organ sounded much better on his stereo, a rather enormous and intimidating affair by itself lol. He explained that there were many reasons for that and that it got on his nerves as well at times. Firstly he said, religious music is bass-shy and in consequence the largest pipes on the old German-style organ at the cathedral were disabled both because of that and also because the vibrations caused by them if they were turned on could damage the building! I thought he was joking but nope, this is the truth. If I wanted to hear all the might of a well-constructed organ in well-constructed church I could go with him and his wife to a Bach recital he would be performing a few weeks later at a gigantic Roman-Catholic cathedral near Detroit.

He said that not only the acoustics there were far superior to those in our rotten cathedral (that's the word he used, "Grammy" [my grandma] heard him and she wasn't too thrilled for she was a religious soul, contrary to her husband and their children, and she did attend the "Episcope" practically every Sunday since they were married there in 1922 right until a few days before she passed) but that on the French-style Casavant organ there had all of its pipes under wind and that we (my GF and I) could find out what "oomph" really meant. And we sure did, all the way down to 16Hz or whatever is the lower threshold of human hearing, then feel the lower tones travel through our body. I could almost feel my pants flapping lol. Those pipes downright gargantuan. Moves a lot of air when you hit the pedals. It was almost a spiritual experience to us, beautiful (and powerful!) German music played on a French organ in a majestic Gothic cathedral (how Catholic churchgoers finance their palatial temples still evades me). We would repeat the experience often all over the country in various churches of various denominations but mostly Catholic and Episcopalian because they have the largest churches. I noticed that Casavant organs (built by the Canadian company bearing the name) were the most common. They come in many sizes from "large" to "jumbo" and are worth a fortune each, but well worth it. I still do not fully comprehend what is the difference between French-style and German-style organs, but learned that French-style are most common in France and in Anglo-Saxon countries, while German-style is more prevalent in central Europe. They have a different sonic signature, the French ones sounding more familiar to American ears. My GF called them "Dracula organs". Despite their French origins there were a number of them in German-speaking countries and I always wondered if Bach (among others) composed music specifically "tuned" for one and/or the other. considering that many German musicians catered to French nobility at the time.

Man is it cool to be retired! You can muse about the most trivial stuff all day and/or all night if you feel like it, all the while listening to what you're musing about and not be made to feel worthless

 

[fill35u]

I asked why the organ sounded much better on his stereo, a rather enormous and intimidating affair by itself lol. He explained that there were many reasons for that and that it got on his nerves as well at times. Firstly he said, religious music is bass-shy and in consequence the largest pipes on the old German-style organ at the cathedral were disabled both because of that and also because the vibrations caused by them if they were turned on could damage the building!

Thanks for that insight! Pipe organs are indeed the largest and most powerful musical instruments. In terms of electrical power input, a pipe organ and our stereos are about equal. But I would expect the sheer size of an organ allows it to generate sound with much greater efficiency. FWIW, some people's sound systems have caused minor damage to their homes.

It does seem strange to me that someone as obsessed with pipe organs as Cameron Carpenter would choose a concert venue with an intentionally crippled organ. Perhaps geographic location won out? This would have been in the DC/Northern VA area, surely there are some full-range pipe organs around there to choose from?

 

[E-Stat]

On this board, I often read posts that utilize industry jargon, audio terminology, and lever specifications in an effort to support arguments to obtain great sound . . . live sound. Then, get your ass out there and listen to a talented band where the sound is ON.

As a season ticket holder for the symphony, I've been doing that for years. And more regularly listen to wifey play the baby grand in the living room.

First of all, if you wanted to recreate such a performance in your space, your system need to be able to play effortlessly at about 110dB.

Fortunately for the sake of my hearing, I don't. Live unamplified music from row O center rarely peaks above 100 db. Average levels far lower. For amplified venues as you've described, I wear earplugs or improvise.

But, I love music first and foremost... And, I walked out of both with no ringing in my ears. While I certainly have moments in my space, it's just not the same when playing music like this. Keep it in perspective.

Agree entirely. Just never have to worry about ringing in my ears!

Several years ago, Journey played at a business conference I attended. TFL. Rolled cocktail napkins to the rescue!

 

[noisefreq]

I always try to compliment the sound man when everything comes together.
They usually only hear about when it sucks.

 

[Bodyblue]

When I was in my 20's (1980s) I went to hundreds of concerts....mostly big acts of the time like Journey, ZZ Top, AC/DC etc but also some classical. I remember them being loud, especially ZZ Top at Mountain Air. Fast forward to last summer when my wife and I went to see Luke Bryan at an outdoor venue. When the bands started playing my wife and I could barely believe how LOUD it was. Are bands playing louder or are my old ears more sensitive? We could only make it through about half before we left.

 

[damacman]

This really isn't about loud - it's about loud enough to recreate the essence of the performance, the feeling of being there.

 

[Guest159]

The OP is going on about the sound of a live event at first, and then takes a hard left and go on about the PA rig. Which is it? You wish your stereo sounded like a live event, or you wish it sounded like a PA rig? I'm genuinely confused. If people want the sound of a PA rig in their living room, then they should forego hifi and install a PA rig.

I personally don't compare my stereo to what the best PA rigs I've heard sound like. That strikes me like comparing the Cummins in a Dodge Ram 3500 to a Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C. I'm trying to fill a room roughly the size of a pickup truck with sound and serious PA rigs are trying to fill an area the size of an ocean liner with sound. I'm always impressed when a PA rig does that with Grace, but I've never heard a PA rig reproduce the quality of sound my home stereo does. Pro audio has gotten amazingly good in the last 15-20 years, but it's NOT a realistic sound. It's not the sound of musicians producing real music on real instruments. It's something else that should be appreciated in it's own right.

 

[KarlK]

Thanks for that insight! Pipe organs are indeed the largest and most powerful musical instruments.

That, they certainly are, this is one of the most spectacular Casavant organs I have seen, at the University of Notre Dame. it weighs 30 tons and is simply breathtaking:

And it sounds even better than it looks

In terms of electrical power input, a pipe organ and our stereos are about equal. But I would expect the sheer size of an organ allows it to generate sound with much greater efficiency. FWIW, some people's sound systems have caused minor damage to their homes.

Err... surely you don't mean that this requires no more power than a home stereo? Such a massive organ certainly requires several large fans to move air through the pipes and the larger ones are 30 feet tall. Imagine the volume... it can do 11Hz iirc Beyond hearing but I tell ya, you feel it.

It does seem strange to me that someone as obsessed with pipe organs as Cameron Carpenter would choose a concert venue with an intentionally crippled organ. Perhaps geographic location won out? This would have been in the DC/Northern VA area, surely there are some full-range pipe organs around there to choose from?

Strange indeed. When I was serving I was often in Norfolk and there's plenty of churches and concert halls, some with large organs. Beats me...

 

[KarlK]

When I was in my 20's (1980s) Are bands playing louder or are my old ears more sensitive? We could only make it through about half before we left.

I'm the same vintage and unfortunately I think it's something that happens with our hearing. As we lose ability to hear higher frequencies midrange frequencies are more apparent to us and it's those frequencies that have the most dramatic effect on our perception of overall volume. This is easy to demonstrate using planar headphones: if they sound too clear in the mids, means we're losing the highs. It sounds counter-intuitive at first but it was convincing enough to entice me to spend over $2,000 (on two pairs) on headphones that wouldn't scream in my ears, while younger people found them muffled I find them perfect... but they were muffled 10 years ago, the same cans. Oh well, at least there's retirement benefits now.

 

[fill35u]

this is one of the most spectacular Casavant organs I have seen, at the University of Notre Dame. it weighs 30 tons and is simply breathtaking:

And it sounds even better than it looks

That's the *Murdy* organ by Fritts that arrived in 2016. Yes, incredible looks!

Err... surely you don't mean that this requires no more power than a home stereo? Such a massive organ certainly requires several large fans to move air through the pipes

The biggest monsters do require multiple blowers totaling hundreds of horsepower. But the much more common big pipe organs run with maybe a couple dozen hp, on par with the kind of home sound systems we're talking about in this thread.

and the larger ones are 30 feet tall. Imagine the volume... it can do 11Hz iirc Beyond hearing but I tell ya, you feel it.

A 32' pipe in the Murdy could do 16Hz.

When it comes to speaker systems, required driver displacement for the same loudness goes as the inverse square of frequency (not accounting for the equal loudness contours). You always have to fight hard in the very bottom for every Hz lower (or dB louder). Increasing total driver area and cabinet volume is the cheapest approach- like a pipe organ, physics dictates bigger is more efficient at bass. At some point, it can become more economical to choose a listening room that doesn't hemorrhage low bass by wall flexing, so you end up with a windowless sealed "bunker". It may also make more sense to abandon increasingly inefficient cone drivers, and use a rotary subwoofer. Then it's like a pipe organ's blower, skipping the middle man of the organ itself...

 

[jblnut]

I see a lot of live music myself, and I prefer smaller venues and "supper clubs" to the 3000 seat Theaters and 10k seat arenas these days. While I love seeing live music and the energy a band can bring to a room, I am almost always disappointed (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) in the sound as compared to my living room. You just don't get the carefully crafted stereo 'image' on a mono PA and you sure don't get an even frequency response most of the time.

Again, I love seeing and supporting musicians, but by and large it's not quite the sonic equal of a very good system in my opinion. There are a few exceptions here like Floyd in 88 as you mentioned or packing yourself into a tight Chicago blues club and getting blown away. And that damn sure is fun on occasion .

jblnut

 

[damacman]

The OP is going on about the sound of a live event at first, and then takes a hard left and go on about the PA rig. Which is it? You wish your stereo sounded like a live event, or you wish it sounded like a PA rig? I'm genuinely confused. If people want the sound of a PA rig in their living room, then they should forego hifi and install a PA rig.

I personally don't compare my stereo to what the best PA rigs I've heard sound like. That strikes me like comparing the Cummins in a Dodge Ram 3500 to a Wartsila-Sulzer RTA96-C. I'm trying to fill a room roughly the size of a pickup truck with sound and serious PA rigs are trying to fill an area the size of an ocean liner with sound. I'm always impressed when a PA rig does that with Grace, but I've never heard a PA rig reproduce the quality of sound my home stereo does. Pro audio has gotten amazingly good in the last 15-20 years, but it's NOT a realistic sound. It's not the sound of musicians producing real music on real instruments. It's something else that should be appreciated in it's own right.

You really should read the post more thoroughly.

 

[fill35u]

While I love seeing live music and the energy a band can bring to a room, I am almost always disappointed (sometimes a little, sometimes a lot) in the sound as compared to my living room.

Good counterpoint, but the OP is after *realism*. I, too, would rather have fidelity.

You just don't get the carefully crafted stereo 'image' on a mono PA

Even with a stereo PA, the only people enjoying actual stereo are a row or two of folks down the middle. The "sweet spot" might be bigger because of scaled-up distances, but it's still a very small percentage of the entire venue.

and you sure don't get an even frequency response most of the time.

Considering we're talking about music *production*, "even frequency response" doesn't have much meaning. Unamplified instruments have varying directivity with frequency and inherent uneven volume of nearby notes. It's up to the musician to control the perceived volume of each note using technique. If the instrument is amplified, the speaker system (and *its* directivity and perceived frequency response) are part of the instrument, and again the musician is controlling what you hear. If you don't like the frequency response of a performance, it's really the music, musicians, or the instruments you don't like. Concerts don't come with tone controls- you get what they give you. You *can* control where in the venue you locate yourself, and this can have a huge impact on frequency response.

Again, I love seeing and supporting musicians, but by and large it's not quite the sonic equal of a very good system in my opinion.

Even a very good system is still designed to *reproduce* sound, the best it can do is equal the original performance. If you think it's better than the original performance, then you've changed something to your liking- and who voted you into the band?

 

[jblnut]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I am a musician and know full well the difference between studio and stage. Who says I am trying to equal anything ? Is it a contest ? Can't I like both ? Can't I state that I like the sound in my living room better than a PA system - no matter how much I like the band or music ?

I voted myself into the band when I built my music room. And I'll enjoy the music any way I see fit thankyouverymuch.

out...

jblnut

 

[fill35u]

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I am a musician and know full well the difference between studio and stage. Who says I am trying to equal anything ? Is it a contest ?

Not a contest, but an endeavor, *if* the goal is high fidelity.

Can't I like both ?

Of course! We're all free to like whatever we like. I can enjoy most music from most systems, no matter how limited. I suspect most people are the same.

Can't I state that I like the sound in my living room better than a PA system - no matter how much I like the band or music ?

Sure, but that's a personal preference, whereas the OP (as suggested by the thread title) is talking about achieving realism, not euphony.

I voted myself into the band when I built my music room. And I'll enjoy the music any way I see fit thankyouverymuch.

That's absolutely your right- but the way you prefer it may not be with the highest degree of realism, which is what this thread is about.

 

[grillebilly]

Live is a completely different sound to my ears. The only instrument that can be closely re-created at home are acoustic guitars. Sometimes voice is close as well.
This comes from many years of experience going to clubs, probably around 1000 live shows that were not in big venues. Live is "large" for lack of a better word.