Is it Possible to Restore a Vintage Receiver such that it is Effectively "Future-proofed?"

[gammarabbit]

Hi all,

I've had a handful of great vintage amps over the years but all of them have ended up crapping out on me in one way or another. The most recent casualty is my long-loved Kenwood KR-4070, which I passed along to an acquaintance for parts.

I am now in the market for a new receiver or integrated amp to pair with my EPI 100s.

I would ideally like to go vintage, because somehow the sound has always felt "right" to me--particularly the power, depth, and textural quality of low frequencies. The one or two newer amps I have owned have been good too, but a little more clinical and "separate" sounding (which is a positive to many).

Somehow these modern guys have always felt like they were lacking that richness in the low end.

I should say these are all low- to mid-priced modern amps, i.e. <$700

I do not have a high budget and would ideally like to have something that will last me awhile without repair costs and related headaches. But the sound is also so important to me. I loved how my 4070 sounded sweet and dynamic at low volumes and put out deep and textured bass even at those "bedtime" listening levels.

So I find myself with a couple options:

1. Buy a "warm"-ish newer amp (I'm looking at Onkyo A-9555 and Marantz PM series) that is less likely to need expensive repairs in the near-future than a vintage piece. Some say the more "vintage-sounding" newer amps like these are darn close in sound to the 70s ones.

OR

2. Scoop another vintage amp (maybe even another 4070) and pay a repair shop to restore it for me (either now or when it inevitably craps).

Option two will cost me much more money -- probably $200-300 for the amp and another $400-$600 for restoration. The A-9555, for instance, can be had second hand for far, far less, and probably wouldn't need repairs for a very long time.

So my qualm is, is it really worth that much to go vintage? Will the $500 restoration cost even provide any kind of security that the amp isn't going to poop out on me again, or develop some other problem?

And I will ask too, to those who have used both vintage and modern amps: Do you think I might warm up to the sound of modern amps (like the Onkyo or Marantz PM), or do you think I should keep chasing that vintage sound?

 

[baeron]

Hi all,

I've had a handful of great vintage amps over the years but all of them have ended up crapping out on me in one way or another. The most recent casualty is my long-loved Kenwood KR-4070, which I passed along to an acquaintance for parts.

I am now in the market for a new receiver or integrated amp to pair with my EPI 100s.

I would ideally like to go vintage, because somehow the sound has always felt "right" to me--particularly the power, depth, and textural quality of low frequencies. The one or two newer amps I have owned have been good too, but a little more clinical and "separate" sounding (which is a positive to many).

Somehow these modern guys have always felt like they were lacking that richness in the low end.

I should say these are all low- to mid-priced modern amps, i.e. <$700

I do not have a high budget and would ideally like to have something that will last me awhile without repair costs and related headaches. But the sound is also so important to me. I loved how my 4070 sounded sweet and dynamic at low volumes and put out deep and textured bass even at those "bedtime" listening levels.

So I find myself with a couple options:

1. Buy a "warm"-ish newer amp (I'm looking at Onkyo A-9555 and Marantz PM series) that is less likely to need expensive repairs in the near-future than a vintage piece. Some say the more "vintage-sounding" newer amps like these are darn close in sound to the 70s ones.

OR

2. Scoop another vintage amp (maybe even another 4070) and pay a repair shop to restore it for me (either now or when it inevitably craps).

Option two will cost me much more money -- probably $200-300 for the amp and another $400-$600 for restoration. The A-9555, for instance, can be had second hand for far, far less, and probably wouldn't need repairs for a very long time.

So my qualm is, is it really worth that much to go vintage? Will the $500 restoration cost even provide any kind of security that the amp isn't going to poop out on me again, or develop some other problem?

And I will ask too, to those who have used both vintage and modern amps: Do you think I might warm up to the sound of modern amps (like the Onkyo or Marantz PM), or do you think I should keep chasing that vintage sound?

You could order a new one like from Amazon maybe. And if you don't like, you could return it for a full refund.
That way you could find out.
If it is what you want.

 

[Grenadeslio]

no such thing as "future proof" even if new

that said, Bryston offers a 20yr warranty if memory serves, about as future proof as you're going to get, but they're not cheap.

my recommendation is find a good tech in your area, if your next piece is vintage bring it in for a checkup even if working to start building a working relationship with the tech.

if an issue does arise he's already familiar with your amp and your now on a first name basis.

I have a guy I've worked with for 3 decades, he only charges me $25 for an estimate which goes toward the repair, that's a working relationship.

good luck with your search

 

[rickb119]

Have you thought about separates? Older, but not quite vintage, amps can be found reasonably priced. Mosfet amps (such as B&K, Hafler, Soundcraftsmen, and others) will give you the warmth you seek, while still being very detailed. Passive preamps can be found cheap. Schiit sells the SYS for $49.00 (although it only has 2 inputs). The Saga has more inputs, and a remote, but is more $. Used, is of course, less $.

As was mentioned, have it serviced, and at least the smaller caps replaced on a power amp.

 

[Pio1980]

Something common that uses "cockroach" tubes.
6BQ5, 6L6/5881 family, EL34/6CA7 family, 6550/KT88 family, 12AX7, 12AU7, 6AN8/6U8/ 6CG8 family.

 

[gammarabbit]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I know that ideally I could form a personal relationship with a tech, but things are pretty difficult in that arena. Most technicians in my area (SE Michigan) are either 1) extremely expensive 2) booked out months in advance or 3) no longer taking on new service work at all.

I still have my eyes open, but my only real option is a dedicated audio repair shop in the area (and it charges extremely high prices).

 

[gammarabbit]

Have you thought about separates? Older, but not quite vintage, amps can be found reasonably priced. Mosfet amps (such as B&K, Hafler, Soundcraftsmen, and others) will give you the warmth you seek, while still being very detailed. Passive preamps can be found cheap. Schiit sells the SYS for $49.00 (although it only has 2 inputs). The Saga has more inputs, and a remote, but is more $. Used, is of course, less $.

As was mentioned, have it serviced, and at least the smaller caps replaced on a power amp.

I actually did look into separates last time I needed a new system, and was intrigued by what I saw. Do you have any recs for particular eras or models of those Mosfet power amps that fit the sound profile I mentioned above? I looked up some second hand pieces from the manufacturers you mentioned on auction sites, and many are available at pretty reasonable prices. The few that caught my eye were from the late 80s - 90s. While I know nothing is "future-proof" in electronics, I do feel a little safer with a big tough power amp from 1990 than an integrated receiver from 1970. And that way I can replace only the failed components instead of dragging the whole thing in for service. I am still fairly new to this concept of separates though -- so if I buy one of those power amps, all I need is a passive pre to complete the system?

 

[Pio1980]

I actually did look into separates last time I needed a new system, and was intrigued by what I saw. Do you have any recs for particular eras or models of those Mosfet power amps that fit the sound profile I mentioned above? I looked up some second hand pieces from the manufacturers you mentioned on auction sites, and many are available at pretty reasonable prices. The few that caught my eye were from the late 80s - 90s. While I know nothing is "future-proof" in electronics, I do feel a little safer with a big tough power amp from 1990 than an integrated receiver from 1970. And that way I can replace only the failed components instead of dragging the whole thing in for service. I am still fairly new to this concept of separates though -- so if I buy one of those power amps, all I need is a passive pre to complete the system?

Passive control totally depends on the relative sensitivity of the amp to your most feeble line source vs the sensitivity of the speakers.

 

[Semanon]

There is no such thing as 'Future-proofing'.

Amen.

I do feel a little safer with a big tough power amp from 1990 than an integrated receiver from 1970

But if the 1990 amp has custom ICs inside, it may be no better (or worse) than the older amp.

Stuff breaks. Buy the stuff that sounds best to you and pay the piper when it no longer works, however long that may be.

OR...buy two, and learn to repair. Then buy parts that are becoming hard to find, like TO-3 and other transistors.

 

[gammarabbit]

Passive control totally depends on the relative sensitivity of the amp to your most feeble line source vs the sensitivity of the speakers.

I admit I am a bit of a noob when it comes to anything but receivers and integrated amps, so I'm not totally sure of all the lingo you are using. I get your gist, but don't understand how it would impact my purchasing decision. If it helps, my speakers are EPI 100s, reasonably efficient 8ohm 2-ways. My line sources will be my computer (sometimes the internal sound card and other times a dedicated DAC).

 

[gammarabbit]

Amen.

But if the 1990 amp has custom ICs inside, it may be no better (or worse) than the older amp.

Stuff breaks. Buy the stuff that sounds best to you and pay the piper when it no longer works, however long that may be.

OR...buy two, and learn to repair. Then buy parts that are becoming hard to find, like TO-3 and other transistors.

This feels like straight advice. Perhaps the move is to just go with what I like and accept that repair costs and headaches are inevitable (and also prepare accordingly, i.e. buying parts).

 

[Semanon]

but don't understand how it would impact my purchasing decision

A passive pre would be easy to repair, since there are no active parts, but it would be best to make sure you have a source with lots of output capability, like a nice DAC or CD payer. You'll need a phono pre for vinyl. Using the headphone jack on your smartphone could be a problem if your amp does not have a sensitive input and/or a lot of power.

This feels like straight advice. Perhaps the move is to just go with what I like and accept that repair costs and headaches are inevitable (and also prepare accordingly, i.e. buying parts).

I am at the point where I am becoming concerned about getting parts for vintage (in the long-term). More and more TO-92 transistors are becoming hard to get. TO-3s are limited. And how much longer are the through-hole devices going to be available? Certainly it's not an immediate concern, but where will we be in 10 years?

Another concern is the inflation in the cost of vintage equipment. Something that sold for $80 5 years ago is selling for $300 to $400 (or more). Add in shipping and refurbishment/longevity, and you're probably right to look at new equipment. Vintage has been discovered and is no longer a deal.

If you are willing to move away from 1970s silver face, there are some great buys from the 1980s. Some of the 1980s stuff is BPC, but a lot is still very good. Stuff like the Yamaha A-1000 is a steal.

There is a lot of really, really excellent new equipment available. It's different from the vintage stuff but still wonderful.

I guess my point is twofold:

• If you are careful and thoughtful you can do well in either the vintage or new market (or next-to-new market).
• Information overload and analysis paralysis are the enemies. Again if you're careful and research well it's hard to make a mistake, and if you do you can resell and only lose a few bucks.

So, yeah, buy what is cool to you and enjoy it until it dies or you get bored with it.

 

[Grenadeslio]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I know that ideally I could form a personal relationship with a tech, but things are pretty difficult in that arena. Most technicians in my area (SE Michigan) are either 1) extremely expensive 2) booked out months in advance or 3) no longer taking on new service work at all.

I still have my eyes open, but my only real option is a dedicated audio repair shop in the area (and it charges extremely high prices).

It takes time, I met my Gary when he worked for an audio repair shop, then he opened his own shop "G&N Audio", he's now retired and working out of his garage.

Had another guy named Henry, owned his own shop also "Suntronics", lost track of both when I moved to California. When I returned both shops were closed, found Henry working at a shop in Jupiter Fl.

Henry finally retired in 2014 for good, nice guy that earned his rest, Henry was a good bit older than me and I remember when dirt was invented.

Was able to find Gary about 5yrs ago now working out of his garage, being retired he doesn't take a lot of work so turn around is quick. He'll let me know up front if something's going to be a money pit, saves me money in the long run.

Not sure what I'll do when Gary stops lol.

So, if not able to do your own repairs you really have no other choice, most new stuff has a 2yr warranty. Sure some have 5, Bryston 20, but not at your budget.

 

[Grenadeslio]

I actually did look into separates last time I needed a new system, and was intrigued by what I saw. Do you have any recs for particular eras or models of those Mosfet power amps that fit the sound profile I mentioned above? I looked up some second hand pieces from the manufacturers you mentioned on auction sites, and many are available at pretty reasonable prices. The few that caught my eye were from the late 80s - 90s. While I know nothing is "future-proof" in electronics, I do feel a little safer with a big tough power amp from 1990 than an integrated receiver from 1970. And that way I can replace only the failed components instead of dragging the whole thing in for service. I am still fairly new to this concept of separates though -- so if I buy one of those power amps, all I need is a passive pre to complete the system?

Doesn't have to be a passive preamp, I rather like my active pres. If you look at B&K they also made preamps, but there's so many others, you might like a Carver, some include a tuner if you want that.

 

[maxhifi]

Listen to more new stuff, before you generalize. There's LOTS of flavors out there. The main case for vintage in the past was cost savings, but now that it is no longer really cheaper, it seems to me that new is increasingly attractive.

 

[David_NC]

How about something between the vintage and modern eras? There are a ton of nice options from the later 80's on through the 90's. Many come with features that go a ways to future-proofing with remote controls, lots of inputs, preamp outputs, etc. Luxman R-115 and 117 receivers would be two, and they are at or about half of your budget. I've got the 70 watt 115, and it's one of the best receivers I have, if not the best. When I eventually find a 117, it will definitely be the best one I have! I know there are quite a few nice Sony ES integrated amps from that era that are well thought of. I really like my 80's NAD PE2200 power amp too, though the preamp I use with it seems to have some issues these days. As for the vintage receivers you mention, I can't imagine paying $600 for restoring a lower end unit. More precisely, I can't imagine the cost being that high. You might have some luck with becoming a member and checking Barter Town. I've seen some great deals there, though I'm usually a day late for the good ones, though I did pick up a nice Sherwood S-5000II integrated tube amp that never ceases to impress.

 

[GChief]

1) extremely expensive

How so? Your paying for a “professionals” or experienced hobbyists time. How much is your mechanics hourly rate?

Listen to more new stuff, before you generalize. There's LOTS of flavors out there. The main case for vintage in the past was cost savings, but now that it is no longer really cheaper, it seems to me that new is increasingly attractive.

This

 

[magicmike]

In my case, I wanted to find units with readily obtainable parts, and then learn to keep it running well.... Lets hope i'm right...

 

[Semanon]

Listen to more new stuff

Gone are the days of spending time listening to audio in stores. But there is something else. Take FULL advantage of companies that offer a trial period. Most will require you to pay return shipping, and some charge a restocking fee, but once you narrow down the search it can be cheaper than buying something at auction that was mistreated.

The main case for vintage in the past was cost savings, but now that it is no longer really cheaper, it seems to me that new is increasingly attractive.

Yep, question is will the purchasers become disenchanted when they start to fail in the next few years and dump them? Remember, lots of these have been sitting, unused, for a decade or more. Will they stand up to renewed heavy usage?

There are a ton of nice options from the later 80's on through the 90's.

I particularly think the preamps with composite video switching are a good deal. You don't have to use that part of the unit, but casual buyers just think about HDMI and pass them over.

But BPC grabs a larger and larger market share as time moves from the 80s to the 90s, so be careful out there.

 

[jefferylhenr]

Hi all,

I've had a handful of great vintage amps over the years but all of them have ended up crapping out on me in one way or another. The most recent casualty is my long-loved Kenwood KR-4070, which I passed along to an acquaintance for parts.

I am now in the market for a new receiver or integrated amp to pair with my EPI 100s.

I would ideally like to go vintage, because somehow the sound has always felt "right" to me--particularly the power, depth, and textural quality of low frequencies. The one or two newer amps I have owned have been good too, but a little more clinical and "separate" sounding (which is a positive to many).

Somehow these modern guys have always felt like they were lacking that richness in the low end.

I should say these are all low- to mid-priced modern amps, i.e. <$700

I do not have a high budget and would ideally like to have something that will last me awhile without repair costs and related headaches. But the sound is also so important to me. I loved how my 4070 sounded sweet and dynamic at low volumes and put out deep and textured bass even at those "bedtime" listening levels.

So I find myself with a couple options:

1. Buy a "warm"-ish newer amp (I'm looking at Onkyo A-9555 and Marantz PM series) that is less likely to need expensive repairs in the near-future than a vintage piece. Some say the more "vintage-sounding" newer amps like these are darn close in sound to the 70s ones.

OR

2. Scoop another vintage amp (maybe even another 4070) and pay a repair shop to restore it for me (either now or when it inevitably craps).

Option two will cost me much more money -- probably $200-300 for the amp and another $400-$600 for restoration. The A-9555, for instance, can be had second hand for far, far less, and probably wouldn't need repairs for a very long time.

So my qualm is, is it really worth that much to go vintage? Will the $500 restoration cost even provide any kind of security that the amp isn't going to poop out on me again, or develop some other problem?

And I will ask too, to those who have used both vintage and modern amps: Do you think I might warm up to the sound of modern amps (like the Onkyo or Marantz PM), or do you think I should keep chasing that vintage sound?

If you are a DIY and completely restore with highest quality parts he’ll yes. These vintage units are built to last. Some are 45+ years old and still original. $200 for best quality parts and 80 or so hours and you have a winner. Unless you find a great hobbiest and loan them the unit for a year to enjoy, you can’t afford a paid tech to do it right.