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It was the phono-preamp the whole time ... a journey through vintage stereo to unsuspected culprit

ghaubrich

ghaubrich

New Member
Here I am, listening quite happily to the new 180 gram pressing of The Birth of the Cool. But getting there was a TRIP!.

1. System I started with: Sony's first digital preamp, something with an ES in it from early 90s, 2 Sony TA-N330ES amps strapped mono, a Sony ES tuner that was kinda worthless, new Sony ES disc player which plays SACDs, Linn Kabers and a Velodyne sub. For vinyl, I got an Angel's Horn, which initially was pretty nice for a $170 tt with cartridge. I also got a BlueMe so I could bluetooth through the tape inputs.
2. Had a couple probs with the Sony preamp, so I searched and waited and found a Luxman TP-117. From when I used to work in a pretty nice audio store (House of Sound in Springfield MO, early 1980s), I knew they had outstanding tuners and great phono preamps, so I bought it and plugged it in.
3. it started sounding unbalanced, and the left channel would cut out and the right channel would sound weak. But, if I bumped the tonearm I'd hear both channels, but maybe a bit unbalanced. And then the left channel would drop out again. The tuner is Lux excellent. CD sound and bluetooth through BlueMe are totally satisfactory. But, I have a lot of really nice vinyl and I LIKE vinyl.
4. Now, I figured it was a tracking problem on the tt. And who wants a cheap TT going into a pretty nice vintage stereo system.
5. I love old Luxman. always have. I found an absolutely beautiful PD-272 with new silver cables already on it. It has a Micro-Seiki TA-1 tonearm which is really elegant, and a I bought a Grado Gold 3 to put on it. Hard to find data on a TA-1 but it's pretty low mass and the Grado should work great on it.
6. Got it all hooked up and mounted and balanced and protracted and ...
7. Dammit. It still didn't "track" right. I had the same damn problems with the Lux that I had had with the Angel's Horn. No left channel, then bump the tonearm or table cover and you get both channels but maybe the right channel sounds kinda weak. Just like the other table.
8. This is probably the place where a reasonable person with critical thinking abilities and some experience with stereo would have considered the possibility that the problem was somewhere other than in the turntable.
9. But no, it had to be the cartridge. I contacted Grado directly, tried a couple things they told me to check, and then their tech guy (John?) said okay we're going to send you something.
10. A few days later I got a brand new personally tested Grado Gold 3. I'm now feeling guilty about this, but i'll rectify that problem with a call to Grado and send them one of the Gold 3s back.
11. I got a turntable weight with a bubble level and leveled the table. No luck. No improvement, no change.
12. BUT, I discovered that the mid-sub driver in my right channel Kaber was not working. I found a replacement driver on Ebay and hooked it up and it didn't work either. voice coils I believe. Fortunately there's a guy in Tulsa who repairs them and I really like the Kabers so i'll be able to put them back in service. But I located a Linn dealer in Dallas or Austin who explained that I wasn't gonna be able to find replacement drivers.
13. Which led to finding some "new" speakers ... a pair of B&W CDM1 SEs ... with a really nice bi-wire and the original sand-filled stands included.
14. Yes, with the Velodyne they sound excellent ... I write, arrange, and record a lot of music and when I played something back from my phone through the BlueMe my horn (trumpet) and keys sounded precisely as I heard them when I recorded. And, of course, balanced appropriately. The tuner now sounded just right also.
15. But, the system didn't still didn't "track" right on vinyl. I added a gram of weight to the headshell. Still same-same. I re-balanced it. I re-protracted it. I re-leveled the table. Still same-same.
16. I posted the problem in the turntable section of Audiogon and we came to the conclusion that it was either the tonearm-cartridge leads (I replaced them) or the soldering on the replacement turntable output wires. Good guesses, and thanks, but unfortunately wrong. I checked them with mag glass and they all looked good.
17. So, I got the Angel's Horn back from my granddaughter and plugged it in. This table has a built-in phono preamp. Going from the direct out into the phono preamp, I had the same continuing problem with the Angel's Horn as with the Luxman. Tap the dust cover, two channels. Drop it in the middle of the record instead of the beginning, maybe two channels. And then the left drops out.
18. BUT, when I run the Angel's Horn through its own pre-amp and into a tape input: VOILA! it plays correctly.
19. Thus, the answer: it's the freaking phone preamp in the Luxman TP-117.
20. I cleaned the tt preamp RCA inputs. I took off the cover and blew out any dust I could see with a can of air spray.
21. Same result.
22. So, I bought an IFi external pre-amp, which gets nice reviews and costs about $220. It came this morning, plugged it in, and it sounds WONDERFUL! So far I've listened to Billy Strings ("Home" -- better when he plays than when he sings); new 180 g pressing of Led Zep II (percussion lights up compared to what I've ever heard on it before); and recent 180 g pressing of Miles Davis "Birth of the Cool" (awfully nice balanced recording, and it sounds just right on this system to me).
23. I am still absolutely baffled to understand how touching the tonearm, tapping the turntable, and such could mimic a tracking problem through an intermittent contact somewhere in the stereo preamp in the TP-117. I don't get it. How can a touch on the tonearm that mimics making it fall into the groove (when it's actually already there) make the pre-amp temporarily reproduce both channels, but then have them cut in and out. Does a slight bump on the table cause a current surge or something that kicks it in intermittently?
24. In the process, I've learned a ton. Tonearms, resonance, cartridge compliance, how to test for blown speaker coils, the odd problems associated with seeking great stereo sound. I've long ago come to a point where I really don't give a damn about multi-channel and complex signal processing to create the illusion of an environment different than the one I'm listening to music in. I want stereo, I want it to sound as much like original as possible, I still only have about $2500 invested in the whole system, and as of this morning, it sounds real, which is what I'm looking for ... what we are all looking for unless we're just trying to impress people with big speakers etc. But, can anybody describe/explain why this phono-preamp short mimics a really bad mistracking problem?
25. Hope you enjoyed the read. Now to figure out why one of my amps decided to turn on but not put out. One good thing about mono strapped power amps is that you have a quick and ready solution when one of them decides to crap out.
26. The Lux turntable with MicroSeiki tonearm and Grado Gold 3 is ... delicious.
 
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I've had stuff that failed in similar ways but usually it was a mechanical connection issue. Bang the whatsit and the connection would move enough to "make" and away she goes.

with this one I'm guessing its signal level related. Make a noise, it blows through whatever is not passing signal and runs for a while. Could be bad solder joints on the phono board, may be a dying part that sort-of revives with a voltage spike. Could even be the selector switch. Output of the phono pre will have to pass through the selector on down the line. If this has multiple phono inputs or if its got any sort of phono level or loading or whatever controls, those are especially sensitive to contact problems at the ~3mv or so level that a typical mag phono cartridge runs at. Doesn't take all that much of a bad contact to kill the signal.
 
ghaubrich said:
23. I am still absolutely baffled to understand how touching the tonearm, tapping the turntable, and such could mimic a tracking problem through an intermittent contact somewhere in the stereo preamp in the TP-117. I don't get it. How can a touch on the tonearm that mimics making it fall into the groove (when it's actually already there) make the pre-amp temporarily reproduce both channels, but then have them cut in and out. Does a slight bump on the table cause a current surge or something that kicks it in intermittently?
Click to expand...
Current surge? No. Intermittent contacts can be cause by a hairline fracture in a PCB track or some other microscopic break somewhere. It only takes a minute movement to temporarily "fix" the problem. My guess is that touching the turntable was sufficient to move the tonearm wires enough to re-make contact somewhere.
 
Glad that you figured it all out and updated and improved your system along the way. I can relate about how certain issues can really be a PIA to track, but there is a certain satisfaction that comes with figuring everything out and then being wowed by the sound. I was recently shopping for a new phono preamp and considered that ifi one but ended up with a Schiit Mani 2, though both of them seem to be great choices, particularly for short $. Sounds like you have built a great system for not too much money, though many if not most folks would consider 2k+ a major outlay for such a thing (but it's really only a couple of iPhones worth and so many folks are nuts about those things...). I don't have a ton of $ to be spending on this stuff myself so I try to find great gear on the cheap and I've built a nice system that sounds very good to me without spending a fortune on it either. I like the challenge of getting great sound for cheap (or at least relatively speaking)... and I definitely believe that one can really get a lot for not too much $$.
 
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It's good you got it sorted out. On a side note, I worked on a Sony TA- 330ES amplifier. I like them! Very well built. The "Twin Drive" thing is a bit of a marketing thing, but the separate Class A and class B amp configuration just works. Its seamless. Plus it allows the amp to run in Class A longer.
I only had the one, so never got to bridge a couple though. The only weak point I found was the stereo/mono switch on the back. Its a small, cheap switch.
Over time it can build up carbon and cause intermittent drop outs. A good cleaning and working it back and forth will cure that. Does yours have the red velvet covered main filter cap support? I found that kind of wierd. After fixing it I gave it back to the original owner.
 
ghaubrich said:
Here I am, listening quite happily to the new 180 gram pressing of The Birth of the Cool. But getting there was a TRIP!.

1. System I started with: Sony's first digital preamp, something with an ES in it from early 90s, 2 Sony TA-N330ES amps strapped mono, a Sony ES tuner that was kinda worthless, new Sony ES disc player which plays SACDs, Linn Kabers and a Velodyne sub. For vinyl, I got an Angel's Horn, which initially was pretty nice for a $170 tt with cartridge. I also got a BlueMe so I could bluetooth through the tape inputs.
2. Had a couple probs with the Sony preamp, so I searched and waited and found a Luxman TP-117. From when I used to work in a pretty nice audio store (House of Sound in Springfield MO, early 1980s), I knew they had outstanding tuners and great phono preamps, so I bought it and plugged it in.
3. it started sounding unbalanced, and the left channel would cut out and the right channel would sound weak. But, if I bumped the tonearm I'd hear both channels, but maybe a bit unbalanced. And then the left channel would drop out again. The tuner is Lux excellent. CD sound and bluetooth through BlueMe are totally satisfactory. But, I have a lot of really nice vinyl and I LIKE vinyl.
4. Now, I figured it was a tracking problem on the tt. And who wants a cheap TT going into a pretty nice vintage stereo system.
5. I love old Luxman. always have. I found an absolutely beautiful PD-272 with new silver cables already on it. It has a Micro-Seiki TA-1 tonearm which is really elegant, and a I bought a Grado Gold 3 to put on it. Hard to find data on a TA-1 but it's pretty low mass and the Grado should work great on it.
6. Got it all hooked up and mounted and balanced and protracted and ...
7. Dammit. It still didn't "track" right. I had the same damn problems with the Lux that I had had with the Angel's Horn. No left channel, then bump the tonearm or table cover and you get both channels but maybe the right channel sounds kinda weak. Just like the other table.
8. This is probably the place where a reasonable person with critical thinking abilities and some experience with stereo would have considered the possibility that the problem was somewhere other than in the turntable.
9. But no, it had to be the cartridge. I contacted Grado directly, tried a couple things they told me to check, and then their tech guy (John?) said okay we're going to send you something.
10. A few days later I got a brand new personally tested Grado Gold 3. I'm now feeling guilty about this, but i'll rectify that problem with a call to Grado and send them one of the Gold 3s back.
11. I got a turntable weight with a bubble level and leveled the table. No luck. No improvement, no change.
12. BUT, I discovered that the mid-sub driver in my right channel Kaber was not working. I found a replacement driver on Ebay and hooked it up and it didn't work either. voice coils I believe. Fortunately there's a guy in Tulsa who repairs them and I really like the Kabers so i'll be able to put them back in service. But I located a Linn dealer in Dallas or Austin who explained that I wasn't gonna be able to find replacement drivers.
13. Which led to finding some "new" speakers ... a pair of B&W CDM1 SEs ... with a really nice bi-wire and the original sand-filled stands included.
14. Yes, with the Velodyne they sound excellent ... I write, arrange, and record a lot of music and when I played something back from my phone through the BlueMe my horn (trumpet) and keys sounded precisely as I heard them when I recorded. And, of course, balanced appropriately. The tuner now sounded just right also.
15. But, the system didn't still didn't "track" right on vinyl. I added a gram of weight to the headshell. Still same-same. I re-balanced it. I re-protracted it. I re-leveled the table. Still same-same.
16. I posted the problem in the turntable section of Audiogon and we came to the conclusion that it was either the tonearm-cartridge leads (I replaced them) or the soldering on the replacement turntable output wires. Good guesses, and thanks, but unfortunately wrong. I checked them with mag glass and they all looked good.
17. So, I got the Angel's Horn back from my granddaughter and plugged it in. This table has a built-in phono preamp. Going from the direct out into the phono preamp, I had the same continuing problem with the Angel's Horn as with the Luxman. Tap the dust cover, two channels. Drop it in the middle of the record instead of the beginning, maybe two channels. And then the left drops out.
18. BUT, when I run the Angel's Horn through its own pre-amp and into a tape input: VOILA! it plays correctly.
19. Thus, the answer: it's the freaking phone preamp in the Luxman TP-117.
20. I cleaned the tt preamp RCA inputs. I took off the cover and blew out any dust I could see with a can of air spray.
21. Same result.
22. So, I bought an IFi external pre-amp, which gets nice reviews and costs about $220. It came this morning, plugged it in, and it sounds WONDERFUL! So far I've listened to Billy Strings ("Home" -- better when he plays than when he sings); new 180 g pressing of Led Zep II (percussion lights up compared to what I've ever heard on it before); and recent 180 g pressing of Miles Davis "Birth of the Cool" (awfully nice balanced recording, and it sounds just right on this system to me).
23. I am still absolutely baffled to understand how touching the tonearm, tapping the turntable, and such could mimic a tracking problem through an intermittent contact somewhere in the stereo preamp in the TP-117. I don't get it. How can a touch on the tonearm that mimics making it fall into the groove (when it's actually already there) make the pre-amp temporarily reproduce both channels, but then have them cut in and out. Does a slight bump on the table cause a current surge or something that kicks it in intermittently?
24. In the process, I've learned a ton. Tonearms, resonance, cartridge compliance, how to test for blown speaker coils, the odd problems associated with seeking great stereo sound. I've long ago come to a point where I really don't give a damn about multi-channel and complex signal processing to create the illusion of an environment different than the one I'm listening to music in. I want stereo, I want it to sound as much like original as possible, I still only have about $2500 invested in the whole system, and as of this morning, it sounds real, which is what I'm looking for ... what we are all looking for unless we're just trying to impress people with big speakers etc. But, can anybody describe/explain why this phono-preamp short mimics a really bad mistracking problem?
25. Hope you enjoyed the read. Now to figure out why one of my amps decided to turn on but not put out. One good thing about mono strapped power amps is that you have a quick and ready solution when one of them decides to crap out.
26. The Lux turntable with MicroSeiki tonearm and Grado Gold 3 is ... delicious.
Click to expand...

I am glad that you found the problem and got the system playing correctly.
Birth of the Cool is a great album, and that Grado is a very nice cartridge (full disclosure, I have a Grado Gold in my ancient Thorens TD-316).:beerchug:
 
Bynem said:
I am glad that you found the problem and got the system playing correctly.
Birth of the Cool is a great album, and that Grado is a very nice cartridge (full disclosure, I have a Grado Gold in my ancient Thorens TD-316).:beerchug:
Click to expand...
yah I just listened to that side 2 again and what a great ensemble mix ...
 
Lavane said:
It's good you got it sorted out. On a side note, I worked on a Sony TA- 330ES amplifier. I like them! Very well built. The "Twin Drive" thing is a bit of a marketing thing, but the separate Class A and class B amp configuration just works. Its seamless. Plus it allows the amp to run in Class A longer.
I only had the one, so never got to bridge a couple though. The only weak point I found was the stereo/mono switch on the back. Its a small, cheap switch.
Over time it can build up carbon and cause intermittent drop outs. A good cleaning and working it back and forth will cure that. Does yours have the red velvet covered main filter cap support? I found that kind of wierd. After fixing it I gave it back to the original owner.
Click to expand...
don't know about the filter cap ... haven't opened either of them up ... but somethin' popped or shorted on one of the amps and now it turns on but does not emit ... I just switched the other one to stereo and it's fine for this system but any clue where to start or what may have blown/popped/crashed/disintegrated/burned?
 
ghaubrich said:
don't know about the filter cap ... haven't opened either of them up ... but somethin' popped or shorted on one of the amps and now it turns on but does not emit ... I just switched the other one to stereo and it's fine for this system but any clue where to start or what may have blown/popped/crashed/disintegrated/burned?
Click to expand...
Does the amp that popped come out of protection? There should be an LED on the front or two if I remember right.
 
Bynem said:
I am glad that you found the problem and got the system playing correctly.
Birth of the Cool is a great album, and that Grado is a very nice cartridge (full disclosure, I have a Grado Gold in my ancient Thorens TD-316).:beerchug:
Click to expand...

Yeah Birth of the Cool is so damn cool...fantastic album.
 
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