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It's 1100 EST, Where'z The CES Announcements

ericbee said:
if it takes MAC 5 years to only now realize that HDMI makes sense, then your company needs a serious wake up call. By the time MAC figures out that 1.3 is the new standard there will be a new connector all together. Sometimes I wonder how any of these companies stay alive.
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I think both Ron and his/McIntosh's critics can be right.

On the one hand, it makes perfect sense for a long time company like McIntosh to only come out with tried and true technology so none of its customers (high income, high maintenance, not necessarily irst adopters) are disappointed by problems and so they dont waste their time on technologies that come and go quickly. Just take Anthem, which came out with the Statement and then apparently if you read these boards) found that their HDMI switching often caused overheating and othet technical problems.

But at the same time, there is a group of us (probably growing) that would love to have the sound and stability Mac provides yet also the newest technology and - much more importantly - an UPGRADE PATH.

It makes little sense to spend $7,000 - 10,000 every three years when so little actually changes. Upgrading from the MX-135 to the MX-136 is a 10K proposition and gets what? Just HDMI switching and not even the newest HDMI? I assume less than 20% of the MX-135 has been changed to create the MX-136, so why do we have to buy a whole new piece?

Meridian and others have it right - if I want to spend 10K on a processor/pre-amp, give me the ablity to upgrade the processor portion for a fraction of that every couple of years when the technology changes!

Can it be that hard to just provide an upgrade path for HDMI while keeping the basics intact?

I've been waiting 6 months to see what McIntosh came up with for CES, and I now find myself just as worried that my 10K purchase will be obsolete the moment I get home. My PS3 and HD-DVD players have outputs for 1.3, and it is hard ot see not buying something that can handle those signals when it appears obvious that these signals will become increasingly important in the next year or 2.
 
Victor said:
My info is the MVP871 has the new 3D face design, but I have not confirmed this yet.

Victor
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Oops, now I'm hearing the MVP871 will have the same style flat face as the MVP861. Sorry if I got your hopes up, I was also wishing for a 3D face on the MVP871.

Victor
 
The 3D face plate design does not work well for CD or DVD players that have a lot of front panel controls. The 871 is loaded with buttons and the depth of the unit is where we need it. 3D would have made the unit deeper and the button layout would be problematic.
We are using extruded aluminum side panels and a single sheet top cover on this and it looks very rich.

Thanks again,
Ron-C
 
HANTMAN: It seems obvious to me that our cries are falling on deaf ears.

First off, I don't agree with your opinion on the Anthem product. I had one and sold it but, Anthem to this day never acknowledged that heat was ever a problem or HDMI switching. It was a POS, but that is another issue as the company is garbage, whereas Mcintosh is not.

I am not an "old school" Mcintosh guy but, I wonder if they ever produced a component with AT+T Glass connections? Those are obsolete now, but at one time were considered cutting edge. Same for laser disc. In the end, no one knows what will succeed or fail or what new connections will be coming down the road. It is up to the company and the designers to determine and decide what they feel will succeed or not.

To wait until a technology is fully matured leaves you so far behind the curve that you are doomed. Like I said, for MAC to come out with their first HDMI processor in 2007 is an embarrassment when the connection was introduced in 2002, 5 years ago.

OK, so lets assume they agree and lets also assume they will try not to make the same mistake twice. We have video game machines, DVD players and plasmas and projectors that are out right now (or within the next 30 days) that use 1.3. The two processors have not yet even been built, why not STOP right now and redesign with 1.3? Why produce and release a product that is already lagging in technology before it is even built?

Paying 10k, or even 7k for this is not an option for me. Not because I cant afford it but, because it offers me NOTHING over my 119/Crystallio scaler with 1.2 HDMI.

As far as only being able to have a 5 foot 1.3 cable well, that was the case with the first DVI and HDMI 1.0 as well but, as the years went by the lengths are hundreds of feet and there are even wireless HDMI and DVI transmitters and receivers. To use that as a reason why not to have 1.3 is about as silly as I can think of.

RON-C: You wrote "We are more interested in real world solutions that work than the latest buzzwords. In the real world hi-band component video is used because HDMI has, well some issues in some systems."

Let me start by saying I can A/B a compnent video feed against an all digital DVI or HDMI video feed and pick the all digital signal every time. Furthermore, if component was so great then why did Mcintosh choose HDMI to display at CES. Be honest with us and with others, an all digital signal is cleaner and has no D to A conversions. Certainly you can agree that the conversion, regardless of how perfect it is, cannot produce a better image than a signal with no conversion at all?

You keep mentioning the "latest buzzwords" and I have to laugh. HDMI 1.3 isnt the latest buzzword, it is a connection that every single hi definition DVD player, plasma and projector will have within 12 months from today. Even cable boxes are being produced with 1.3 to replace the older 1.2 boxes. This isnt a buzzword, it is reality. In fact, I don't think I can recall a single VIDEO connector that has become obsolete ever. Composite is still used on many pieces of equipment, I have 12 of them on my processor and a dozen more on everything else along with S-video. Both are "obsolete" but, still very widely used. HDMI isn't a buzzword please re-evaluate your opinion.

You further stated: " higher level video is in the long range plans of some companies."

I am assuming that Mcintosh is not one of those companies. OK, I can understand that you cant predict the future of HD or what the next 1080 resolution will become. How about focusing on the PRESENT level of video and produce a product that is at least current with technology? Hint: 1.3 HDMI
 
Component video is certaintly digital resolution and easily supports 1080p. We have that now and you can verify this very simply. Just lock the MDLP-1 projector at 1080p resolution and watch it lock on to the signal out of the VP1000 or MVP871.
HDMI does offer HDCP copy protection which is needed by the movie studios. McIntosh supports HDCP on all of our HDMI connections of course.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
RON-C: One of us is confused. Last I checked, component video was ANALOG not digital and requires a D to A conversion when outputting from a DVD player, or any other digitial source.

I went out and did a search, just in case some of the other forum members might agree with you because you are "Ron-C" and here is what I found:

"Analog video signals (also called components) must provide information about the amount of red, green, and blue to create a television image. The simplest type, RGB, consists of three discrete red, green and blue signals sent down three coaxial cables with RCA connectors"

You can read all about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Component_video

In addition to being analog and requiring D to A conversion which degrades picture quality, component video does not carry any audio, requires 3 sets of cables rather than a single cable and is not capable of resolutions much higher than 1080 or so, certainly not 1920 for example.
 
I must admit that I'm getting a bit concerned about McIntosh and some of their recent product decisions. First they stop production of the C200 with no replacement. (Dealers are being told to push the C220 in it's place... get real!) Now we're being told that we don't need HDMI 1.3.

Is McIntosh listening to their customers? (Isn't that what forums are for?)
 
ericbee said:
Ron, I know you are an intelligent guy and are well aware of the differences between 1.3 and all other flavors of HDMI. To insinuate that current HDMI provides the same color palatte or even as many colors as 1.3 is grossly innacurate. Current HDMI provides millions of colors while 1.3 provides BILLIONS of colors. Greyscale alone can be up to 8x more accurate, increase shadow detail and black level detail.

Your argument is that because audio over HDMI in the past has been troublesome, why bother worrying about future audio? Did you ever think that the HDMI association learned from their mistakes by incomplete standards and perhaps this time around they know that a complete standard MUST be implimented? I will gamble that they wont screw up two times and audio over HDMI 1.3 will be perfect.

You wont be able to get the new lossless audio like Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™ unless you have 1.3 so, you will be out of luck without it on the new processors. Perhaps you also believe that current DTS and DD are good enough and the new formats will not be noticeably better? Again, I completely disagree and the new formats add so much depth and soundstage that it is like comparing dolby digital 2.0 to DTS EX..no contest. As far as no one using it, that isnt true. Both HD/BR DVD formats use it and more and more WILL use it. You know it exists and you know it is a buzzword NOW, why wouldnt you at least offer some upgrade path to it or implement it into the chipset now and allow it to be "opened" with a firmware update?

"If and when they can make it work we will look at it if it makes sense for the McIntosh user."

Thats a great slogan but, if it takes MAC 5 years to only now realize that HDMI makes sense, then your company needs a serious wake up call. By the time MAC figures out that 1.3 is the new standard there will be a new connector all together. Sometimes I wonder how any of these companies stay alive.
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"You wont be able to get the new lossless audio like Dolby® TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio™ unless you have 1.3"

This statement is not true at all. Because of Advance Content becomming more and more prevelant (it is on all HD DVD's now and will be on all Blu-ray disc by summer (this is what the studios want) the decoding will have to be done in the player and not in the receivers or pre/pros. A well implemented receiver/pre/pro with HDMI 1.1 is all you will need for the new audio codecs so long as the receiver/pre/pro will pass the audio signal through LPCM. You can also enjoy the new codecs through external inputs. Having the receiver or pre/pro with the new audio codecs is a waste of money because of this.

For the billions of color you will see with HDMI 1.3, name one video source (tv, dvd or HD DVD or BD) that utilizes this now or within the next few years. The game and pc industry has the ability but in all fairness this is not really the clientele that buys Mac gear. Your argument here is not backed by a lot of evidence that you or anyone else really needs HDMI and your attach on Ron-C is out of line.

If you have problems with Mac don't buy their products. Go elsewhere. I for one, could care less about HDMI 1.3. Give me a well featured pre/pro with 2-4 HDMI 1.1 inputs that can pass multi channel LPCM over HDMI and 2-4 component inputs with at least one 7.1 external input and I am good to go for a long time.
 
My 1080i component outs from the cable box to my MX134 and on to my Pioneer Elite 64" RSP is fine for now. I have no interest in this Blu-ray-HD nonsense and I won't even consider an HD DVD player until it is all sorted out. Audio is far and away my primary interest. Video and home theater is a wonderful part of my system but takes a distant back seat to music. I am far more interested in an MDA1000, MC501's, and someday Watt/Puppy's than I am in the latest video rage. Besides, video switching really isn't that critical to me, you can always run the video out straight to the monitor.

I appreciate ericbee's passion, but I think he is being much too harsh on Ron. Ron clearly stated that McIntosh's philosophy is to wait for a technology to prove itself before jumping in. This is completely in keeping with their commitment to quality and I fully appreciate this.

Ivan, you are conspicuously absent in this thread! I know you're lurking out there. Any thoughts?

JR
 
VTGOLFER: Point number 1 is that HDMI 1.1 cannot pass through both the HD video and Lossless Audio but, 1.3 can in a single cable.

Number 2: In my home theater I do all of my decoding in my processor. Sure, I can decode DTS and DD in my DVD player but, the horsepower is in the processor. What you "heard" about it being required in the player is not 100% true. Players will have the ability to decode and so will processors and where you decode is up to you.

As far as being able to run the audio via LPCM, how you gonna do that when the soundtrack is 8 channels? How is the MAC going to be able to discretely direct 8 different channels through LPCM? Cant do it via HDMI 1.1 or LPCM as far as I know, maybe you can enlighten me?

You wrote: "For the billions of color you will see with HDMI 1.3, name one video source (tv, dvd or HD DVD or BD) that utilizes this now or within the next few years."

Just like MAC cannot predict the future neither can I but, I can assure you that if the ability and capability is there then products will be designed to take advantage of it. Sony has the PS3 (now)and the Epson EMP-TW1000 display (now), you can also add the new Denon recievers with 1.3 (feb) and the Panasonics (feb) but, like Ron said, the chipsets/connectors have only just been released and in short time, as more consumers demand it, they will inevitably begin the transformation. Why would a company produce ANY 1.2 HDMI product today when 1.3 costs the same, is backwards compatible and uses the same connection with an adapter? Its an evolution in technology, not a revolution.

I have no problem with MACs build quality, sound, pricing or useability, my problem is that they are exceptionally slow in bringing products to market, their website is a horror, getting new info on their products is like pulling teeth, finding a retail price is not possible, and their technology is always yesterdays news.

Tough to be torn between immediate obsolecence and the sound quality I have grown to love. My ears and heart say stay but my brain and wallet say pass.
 
OK, back from having dinner and watching KQED HD..awesome picture! I should have said we send the same digital resolution down component as HDMI. The Blu-Ray and HD-DVD folks are doing the same with their players for the most part.
Compatibility with existing products such as a two year old Plasma TV are important. Many of our customers have one and we had better have the best picture into this set which in all likelihood will be useful for the next decade.
Component video, RGB, is the main video pipe on the production side of video. Component is capable of delivering the same resolution as HDMI. HDMI normally uses three pair of twisted pair, 28 gage cables to carry the video signal. This will work up to 25 feet at 1080p. This year you will see much larger diameter HDMI cables that use a larger gage cable to carry the signal farther. We were using one at CES to carry the HDMI 1080P from the MVP871 to the MDLP-1 projector.
If you want 1.3 now step up and vote with your wallet. There is a Playstation 3 out there with your name on it and I have been told they have an excellent picture when playing DVDs. Noisy fan though...
McIntosh does not tell dealers what to sell. C220 in place of the C200?? That makes no sense. The C100 and C200 had a nice run of almost ten years. We are not saying there is no place for a $7000 stereo preamp but nothing is pending at this time.
Engineering hours are a finite resource. The allocation of this is directly proportional to popularity of the results of this effort. To spend time on something like 1.3 now is not practical as the majors can do the heavy lifting and develop the chip set solutions to bring it all together. At that point it will become universal across the industry.
The MVP871 is a good example where the large scale control chip dramatically simplifies the complex operation of this and most other DVD players. This leaves room for the awesome analog power supply that not only improves the sound but also the picture. The regulator heatsinks of this power supply are larger than most 100 watt per channel amps use. To keep up with the voltage swings 4 of the largest high speed diodes are used on their own individual free standing heatsinks. All of this uses an oversize R-Core power transformer of course.
We suspect that the new products will be warmly received by lovers of both music and film like video.

Thanks,
Ron-C
 
Tough to be torn between immediate obsolecence and the sound quality I have grown to love. My ears and heart say stay but my brain and wallet say pass.
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Well, the good thing about living in a modern world is that we have plenty of choices. If one must absolutely have the latest technology I am sure the local Best Buy and Circuit City will offer choices. I for one don't mind waiting for technology to mature enough where McIntosh picks it up if that is what I am interested in. There is also such thing as ownership pride and satisfaction over the Hitachi, Toshiba, etc... There is Seiko then there is Rolex, the Seiko may even keep better time but I prefer the satisfaction of owning a Rolex. :yes:
 
PHC1: I dont need the absolutely newest technology, all I ask for is the ability to upgrade to newer technology at a future date. How about a trade in policy, similar to Lexicon, where the trade in value gets credited towards the retail price of a future product?

We are all beating a dead horse here. MAC isnt offering an upgrade path, a trade in credit or HDMI 1.3. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. If you or I want or need HDMI 1.3 then MAC isnt for us, if we can live without it then MAC is as good a choice as any.

Done here.
 
ericbee said:
PHC1: I dont need the absolutely newest technology, all I ask for is the ability to upgrade to newer technology at a future date. How about a trade in policy, similar to Lexicon, where the trade in value gets credited towards the retail price of a future product?

We are all beating a dead horse here. MAC isnt offering an upgrade path, a trade in credit or HDMI 1.3. That pretty much sums it up in a nutshell. If you or I want or need HDMI 1.3 then MAC isnt for us, if we can live without it then MAC is as good a choice as any.

Done here.
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ericbee, name one pre/pro that is or will be incorporating HDMI 1.3 this year. If I am not mistaken there is not one. Not even Anthem in the AVM 50 or Statement D2 incorporates HDMI 1.3 but rather 1.1 and they will pass multi channel LPCM through HDMI for the uncompressed audio codecs so therefore you do not need 1.3.

1.3 is such a buzz word but in reality a well designed pre/pro that has 1.1 will be good now as well as for the next 5 or so years and by that time we will start seeing wireless being incorporated I am afraid.:scratch2: :puke: which will creat a whole other set of issues.

So if you need all the latest then McIntosh is definately not your cup of tea but if you want cutting edge technology and superior sound quality then Mac is a viable option.

Just look at all the problems the Anthem pieces are having. How would you like to be downloading new software on almost a weekly basis to be able to watch DVD's, TV's and CD's?:no:
 
This seems to be a discussion about upgrade paths and I think a business point is being missed. This is not about us obsessive few having to run out and upgrade our MX135 to an MX136. This is just about McIntosh having a relatively current product to sell to everybody, from MX130 owners to all the new conquests they get every year. These products are current albeit, not 'cutting edge' (nor do they make any promises to be cutting edge.) Again, I respect McIntosh's conservative approach and commitment to quality. Look at venerable old Sony, they still don't have a stand alone blu-ray player on the market and they invented it!

So at any given time people will make their buying decision based on what is available NOW. Some technologies mature much faster than others. My C2200 and MC402 will be state-of-the-art for a LONG time. My MS300 is already completely obsolete, but I still love it. New products will always come out, companies will make decisions on what features to include based on price/compatibility/features/availability/reliability and other key factors and consumers will decide whether to buy now, wait, or buy something else.

Yes, McIntosh has it's quirks. The web site could certainly be better although I like that they include owners manuals there. Not listing prices and being secretive about new products is their business decision and I think it adds to the high-end mystique. In fact, it seems to me that McIntosh is far more concerned with engineering and production then they are with marketing. I guess since their products and reputation are so good that marketing can take a back seat. Ron's very presence with us McGeeks on this site shows me their committment to us dedicated few. The fact of the matter is that most MVP871's and MX136's will be installed in a custom theater in some glorious mansion and be enjoyed for many years by someone who could care less about HDMI 1.3 or 100.3.

JR
 
ron-c said:
McIntosh does not tell dealers what to sell. C220 in place of the C200?? That makes no sense. The C100 and C200 had a nice run of almost ten years. We are not saying there is no place for a $7000 stereo preamp but nothing is pending at this time.
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I'd guess that the decision to discontinue the C200 was a marketing decision designed to push people up to the C1000 series. Want a moving coil head amp or better than the C2200 or C46? Removing the C200 leaves people 1 choice and that's the top end system.
 
ericbee said:
For the record, HDMI 1.3 won innovations 2007 design and enginerering award at CES.

Here is a short list of components, again I don't need to repost that ALL HD DVD players and ALL Blu Ray Players are/will be 1.3:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9676526-5.html (NOTE: Decoding in the reciever)

http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-New-Receivers-from-Denon-Are-HDMI-Ready-42844.shtml

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9319353#post9319353
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At this time all these components are prototypes and not even working prototypes. So who knows if and when they will ever hit the streets. It is one thing to announce a new product but another to actual come to market with it. I am not saying they will not because I am pretty sure Denon will bring there's out.

Like I said before, if Advance Content makes it onto all disc, and it sure looks that way at this time, all the decoding will have to be in the player and not the pre/pro and/or receiver so those codecs that Sherwood and Denon are incorporating are just add ons and will cost the consumer more when he/she does not need it.
 
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