JBL 4341 no Sound Stage vs Spendor SP1/2

[travellersol]

Tubbiness and the many other terms are subjective at best and everyone will tend to use them slightly differently.

If you've ever met any stereo or audio reviewers (I have), they're basically writers who like music, get equipment to demo, and some of them have just better than marginal spaces to set up. If it can't be made to sound good in your listening space, it's not for you.

I have found that the older monitors are great at making music, but each generation continues to get slightly better in imaging and other important musical elements. What some call soundstage, I call "concert hall effect" where there's more cross-channel echo giving lots of airy openness, but no real defined and accurate imaging of a properly miked recording. Or in other words, if the clarinets are recorded at 11:30, they should always be at 11:30, not moving around the stage. Many recordings are (as mentioned above) mixed with the music purposely delayed into the 2nd channel to give the concert hall effect, it's impossible to correct this with good speakers and placement.

Much development in JBL Pro speakers went to help evolve imaging of a pair of speakers in a less than perfect environment. The Engineers understood the relationship between first-arrival sound and second-arrival sound and how the brain processes it, worked hard on designing speakers that can create proper imaging even with expected reflected sound in this imperfect environment that the monitors will see. The imaging of these later monitors is excellent, try out a pair of 4410As or LSR6328P/LSR6312SP and you should be very impressed. I haven't been so lucky as to listen to a pair of M2s yet, ... on my list. The point being that imaging is very much a primary goal of modern studio monitors.

Another point is is how critical the environment is and how pros set up a venue. If you take the time to measure the room for standing waves, decay, and other things that affect not only imaging but cancellation and other reflected-sound effects, you have a very good start in designing a speaker installation. Without this critical data, you're pretty much shooting in the dark.

thanks. there are certainly many things to learn in this hobby......

 

[travellersol]

OK, here it is.

This compares the 2235s to the 2241s both through the same crossover (~800 Hz). Other components are the 2420 on the long (L300) horns and 2405 tweeters. There is also a bit of sub being used.

Note how when the 2235s are switched in, the vocals drop to mono whereas the sound field is much more diffuse with the 2241s. The camera captures the effect, but not like being in the room. You can also hear that the 2241s need some padding in their cabinets (boxy). There is none.

The woofers were matched for volume by adding resistance to the 2241s. Maybe a bit too much.

I'll let you figure out which way the switch flips for the 2235s and which way for the 2241s.

Left: mono - 2235s; Right: diffuse - 2241s

Thanks for the very intuitive clip. You said that the the camera captures the effect, but not like being in the room. Do you mean that in person you can feel a good sound stage?

 

[toddalin]

The stereo to mono effect is more pronounced when sitting in the room. The mics on the camera are so close together, you loose some of the stereo separation.

 

[ClaytonD]

So you're listening to the JBLs placed maybe 8-ft apart measured at their center line and your listening position is 20-ft away? What soundstage imaging were you expecting? Try moving up twelve-feet or so, and slightly toeing-in the JBLs. My 4345s create a fine soundstage but they are further apart than you had your 4341s and I'm much closer to them.

^ This.

Also, I’ve never heard anyone complain about the larger JBL 43xx Studio Monitors until now as they are the most accurate sounding speakers I’ve ever heard. It gets a lot better as you get up into the higher end models like the 4345, 4350, or the totl 4355. Are those Pioneer HPM 1500 super tweeters on top ? Oh boy. Did you mess with the crossovers? It’s possible that the problem could be the speaker AND the distance. The OP is definitely too far from the JBL 4341s!

 

[E-Stat]

Also, I’ve never heard anyone complain about the JBL 43xx Studio Monitors until now as they are the most accurate sounding speakers I’ve ever heard.

Most accurate? Sorry to hear that.

I cannot speak for the 4341s, but the 4310/4311s are downright horrible in terms of imaging. Locanthi broke fundamental design rules that later Harman engineer Floyd Toole would have significant issues with. The problem is with directivity. I cannot listen to them without being aware of their weird imaging.

The 4310/4311/Century/L100/L110 all crossed the 5" midrange about an octave higher than the driver could reasonably deliver in terms of directivity. The result was a kind of fun house mirror where the top and bottom were fine, but the upper mids were significantly clamped down in an hourglass shaped mode. You just cannot deliver reasonable response with a 5" midrange delivering 3" wavelengths. Directivity shrinks at the top end of the driver only to transition to a dome tweeter in its sweet spot not sharing the same limitation.

Fortunately, the current JBL LSR6332 monitors corrected the fundamental flaws found with earlier models. Using essentially the same sized drivers, the Xover to the tweeter is an octave lower.

 

[Son_Chad]

Most accurate? Sorry to hear that.

I cannot speak for the 4341s, but the 4310/4311s are downright horrible in terms of imaging. Locanthi broke fundamental design rules that later Harman engineer Floyd Toole would have significant issues with. The problem is with directivity. I cannot listen to them without being aware of their weird imaging.

The 4310/4311/Century/L100/L110 all crossed the 5" midrange about an octave higher than the driver could reasonably deliver in terms of directivity. The result was a kind of fun house mirror where the top and bottom were fine, but the upper mids were significantly clamped down in an hourglass shaped mode. You just cannot deliver reasonable response with a 5" midrange delivering 3" wavelengths. Directivity shrinks at the top end of the driver only to transition to a dome tweeter in its sweet spot not sharing the same limitation.

Fortunately, the current JBL LSR6332 monitors corrected the fundamental flaws found with earlier models. Using essentially the same sized drivers, the Xover to the tweeter is an octave lower.

I’m pretty sure ClaytonD is talking about the 4345, 4350, and the TOTL 4355..

 

[ClaytonD]

I’m pretty sure ClaytonD is talking about the 4345, 4350, and the TOTL 4355..

You are correct. Just edited my previous message.

 

[E-Stat]

I’m pretty sure ClaytonD is talking about the 4345, 4350, and the TOTL 4355..

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure for rock music, those would excel.

As for acoustical genres...

If I were to move from full range electrostats, I would likely choose Danley horns as they deliver consistent directivity through radiation from a common "mouth"

 

[BMWCCA]

The OP is definitely too far from the JBL 4341s!

How could anyone argue with someone who has one of the most beautiful cars ever in his avatar? My 1985 M635CSi was one of my favorites. Sold it three times!!

 

[Stereognat]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm sure for rock music, those would excel.

As for acoustical genres...

A proper pair of those JBL’s will sound unfuckingbelievable will all genres.

How could anyone argue with someone who has one of the most beautiful cars ever in his avatar? My 1985 M635CSi was one of my favorites. Sold it three times!!

That’s awesome! Do you have any pictures of it?

 

[E-Stat]

A proper pair of those JBL’s will sound unfuckingbelievable will all genres.

For some yes, so long as coherence and transparency isn't critical to that listener's awareness.

 

[Son_Chad]

For some yes, so long as coherence and transparency isn't critical to that listener's awareness.

That’s rude. Do you have some sort of bias against those JBL speakers? You’d be lucky to even score a pair, let alone have one that came from Kenrick Sound. Since you’re being so bitter toward some of the most highly regarded JBL speakers in the world, let’s see what speakers you’ve got.

 

[twiiii]

Most JBL's with 4 way crossovers and Acoustic lens are a compromise. They may have excellent frequency response but unless you are with in 6 to 8 ft what little accuracy they have is being compromised by room acoustics. The only way they work is with a LEDE room. JBL latest professional speakers and the DD series for consumers are a vast improvement. The Bi radial 4425, 30 and 35 are an improvement , too. But you still have to be close to the speakers and should be hung from the ceiling that is very rigid and absorbent. Placing them on floors is big compromise unless there is thick carpet with thick padding in place. Altec two ways were much more accurate with imaging but they did n't have the extension at the extremes that JBL had. Studio monitors in general have a very short accurate listening distance. So I would look else where for speakers to be used in the home. .

 

[Stereognat]

Most JBL's with 4 way crossovers and Acoustic lens are a compromise. They may have excellent frequency response but unless you are with in 6 to 8 ft what little accuracy they have is being compromised by room acoustics. The only way they work is with a LEDE room. JBL latest professional speakers and the DD series for consumers are a vast improvement. The Bi radial 4425, 30 and 35 are an improvement , too. But you still have to be close to the speakers and should be hung from the ceiling that is very rigid and absorbent. Placing them on floors is big compromise unless there is thick carpet with thick padding in place. Altec two ways were much more accurate with imaging but they did n't have the extension at the extremes that JBL had. Studio monitors in general have a very short accurate listening distance. So I would look else where for speakers to be used in the home.

Gotta disagree there. Just recently demoed a pair of Everest DD67000 in two different settings and thought they were too shouty like the Altecs I had. No thank you! Having owned 5 (Altec 604 8H-III from GPA) and demoed over 80 other expensive loudspeakers ranging from $3,000 to $300,000 (before buying my final system), none of them had that unexplainable holographic sound that many like myself love so much.

 

[Son_Chad]

Let’s all just agree to disagree and get back on topic.

 

[JoeESP9]

That’s rude. Do you have some sort of bias against those JBL speakers? You’d be lucky to even score a pair, let alone have one that came from Kenrick Sound. Since you’re being so bitter toward some of the most highly regarded JBL speakers in the world, let’s see what speakers you’ve got.

Being upfront about perceptions is not bitter and does not indicate bias. it's a well known fact that full range ESL's (what E-Stat uses) are more coherent and transparent than any cone type speakers. There are no crossovers to muddy the signal and the transient response is superb because the moving mass, which is driven over it's entire surface, is close to the same as a couple of cubic inches of air. You owe it to yourself to listen to some full range ESL's. You may be surprised by what you hear.

FWIW: I'm no big fan of JBL's either.

 

[Son_Chad]

Being upfront about perceptions is not bitter and does not indicate bias. it's a well known fact that full range ESL's (what E-Stat uses) are more coherent and transparent than any cone type speakers. There are no crossovers to muddy the signal and the transient response is superb because the moving mass, which is driven over it's entire surface, is close to the same as a couple of cubic inches of air. You owe it to yourself to listen to some full range ESL's. You may be surprised by what you hear.

FWIW: I'm no big fan of JBL's either.

Unfortunately for you, I had a chance to hear a pair at my local store and did not like the way they sounded. In fact, I disliked them so much, I would never spend a dollar on them. They’re also ugly to look at (no offense to anyone). I’ve read many articles that disagree with your statement and will leave it at that.

 

[JoeESP9]

What models did you hear?
My comments about coherency and moving mass are facts.
Saran wrap (ESL diaphragms) weighs ~0.037oz. (1.04 Grams) per square foot. Full range ESL's have no crossovers.

These are ugly?

 

[ClaytonD]

What models did you hear?
My comments about coherency and moving mass are facts.
Saran wrap (ESL diaphragms) weighs ~0.037oz. (1.04 Grams) per square foot. Full range ESL's have no crossovers.

These are ugly?

I heard these at my Best Buy store (inside Magnolia) when shopping for a projector and a McIntosh D100. Magnolia always displays them at the entrance of their store and keeps the B&W’s in their demo rooms (another brand I distance myself from). I asked John to turn up the volume when he had them connected to a McIntosh and I’m sorry but they sound nowhere remotely close to the incredible sound of the larger 4300 studio monitors. Don’t care what you try to say to justify the design, but I personally could care less. It sounds thin and lifeless. Not a fan of the looks, as the middle piece reminds me of that metallic grill you see inside of a microwave but elongated like a stick of butter or the neck of a garaffe.

 

[c_dk]

Over a forty year career, visiting hundreds of client's listening rooms, listen to untold thousands of favorite cuts, and measuring said rooms and speakers with my 1/3 octave test equipment all I can say paraphrasing Art Linkletter......."people will listen to the darnedest things".

If it makes them happy, it has to be right for them, however if they would invite me into their home most often they knew or felt they had a problem. Finding a solution, nudging them into a more " mainstream" sound was often a drawn out process.

It doesn't help that every speaker designer believes that Gabriel itself, put down it's trumpet and whispered into the designers ear THE solution for the best speaker.

Dealing with some of the biggest names in the audiophile speaker market and how their speakers actually interacted in real people living rooms was always a interesting proposition.

I came to believe in most cases they did not have a clue........