JBL L300A Clone value?

[SaturationPt]

I have plans from a member here, and a local CNC / wood shop, and drivers/horns/lenses, ... am planning/considering making a set of L300A clones. The drivers are later (ferrite) JBL, probably going to set up for tri-amp as well as build the upgraded crossovers, tweeters will be the 2405 (aluminum prism) not the consumer / acrylic prism version.

I plan to have them veneered, not sure whether I'll have the glass top or a veneered top (glass would be more original, veneered to match the sides would IMO be more attractive).

The value question is because I'm trying to decide how much is too much to spend on the build, as looking at my history there is at least some chance that I will eventually want something else, ... and sell them. Likely in a couple of years (maybe never). I don't expect them to ever be worth what the genuine ones are, but does anyone think they'll be worth half? Less? More? Obviously one can presume excellent condition.

I'm not looking for an opinion on whether I should just buy an original set, so far waiting for a really nice set of As has proved to be a long wait, and considering that I'd want to modify them with better drivers and crossover and a multi-terminal strip would kill the value so not currently an option (unless a decent set of empty cabinets becomes available).

 

[swechsler]

In general, DIY speakers are worth the value of their drivers and crossovers. There are some exceptions, of course, especially when exact plans were available, but when you consider that if you sell them locally you'd probably get a lot less than if you were willing to ship them, the fact that shipping them isn't practical due to size and weight, and even if it was, a potential buyer wouldn't be able to evaluate the build beforehand, you'd probably make more parting them out and scrapping the cabinets (or maybe getting a few bucks for them locally). Also consider that commercially-made cabinets whose drivers have been stripped out don't have much value either.

 

[SoCal Sam]

I have to agree with the first reply. I have had more than a few Madisound kit speakers which sound miles better than similarly sized Polk and B&W speakers. Better built with heavy cabinets as well. I can't give them away because no one knows what they are. Kit implies home brew which is true and that makes matters worse. If you do a great job with the cabinets and it looks real enough, my guess would be one quarter to one third of market value of real Summits...or about the value of the drivers.

 

[BMWCCA]

Ten-years ago I purchased quality-built JBL 4345 clones. They used cabinets made by the supplier for KenRick, and were populated with original JBL drivers or drivers re-coned with original JBL kits. Crossovers were custom built charge-coupled from a design provided by the JBL engineer responsible for the original 4345. Sounded great, looked great, and not only were they less than a third of the going asking price for original 4345s (of which less than 200-pairs were known to have been produced), they were roughly one-seventh the asking price for "new" KenRick clones shipped from Japan. I didn't have to beat off a horde of prospective purchasers to get them, either. I may have been the only person to have responded to the honest listing for them. I could have purchased original L300s for just a bit more (maybe 1/3 more) at the time, but those have appreciated quite a bit since then. The 4345 blew away the L300/4333 by a mile.

Not sure what mine will ever be worth, but I don't really care, either, since I'll be dead or in an old-folks home before that happens. I hope to have enjoyed them for over 20-years by that time, putting my "investment" at something less than 50¢ per day.

 

[gogofast]

IME, almost all diy will not get you what you put in when you try to sell them - especially when you outsource pricey works like cab making. Unless you have a friend working at that wood shop you mentioned, making proper cabs will be very pricey. As mentioned by SoCal Sam, I've also seen diy speakers that cost $3k-$4k given away for $200 in the end 'cause no one wants 'em.

For famous models like your L300a, I'm sure you'll get more than what the parts cost, but still not the cost of all the paid labors.

 

[SaturationPt]

Thanks for all of the replies.

The desire to build like the L300s is I guess romantic, want a pair, but better, so it sounds like it might make more sense to go with an improved cabinet size/shape for SQ and abandon the L300 thoughts. I suspected this, ... and could build 4333 clones MUCH more easily, ... here in my garage. then I guess I can finish them any way I want and it doesn't matter (or any way my wife wants).

The other part of using the L300 (or 4333) plans is that I don't have to calculate anything, JBL did that already. If I go complete DIY I need to do more work up front.

 

[nedseg]

Yah, future value would be in the components mostly, but using stock cabinets might make a future sale a tad easier.

Getting the curved top edges right will be a challenge - there are some posts/pics from some one who did this over at Lansing Heritage, I believe.
I personally prefer the look of either the L200 or the 4333s over the L300s...not even sure why!
New foam grills are still available, too...they just sit on window screens, basically.

If I were to do this, I'd look first for used/good condition L200 cabinets...there are lots of them out there, but might be hard to find as many are just 'warehoused' and no longer actively marketed. I think there was someone in either Vegas or SLC who had dozens of the things...but that was a while ago.
Even if painted or damaged veneer, they'd be pretty straightforward to re veneer - tho the front edge nose trim would be not easy to replicate.

Adding the 077/2405 and N8000 crossover is simple to do...I think there are some on offer on eby now.

The CD is the same as in the L300, but could fit the longer horn if absolutely needed by adding a doghouse out back.
Depending on the condition of the cabs, I might add some internal bracing.

But, I'd sure not use the original woofers, and go instead with either of the new 2216 NDs, from either the M2 or 4367.
(Toss the original LX16 crossovers)
Pricey, but not that much more than good condition used 2235s.
They also vastly improve the upper midrange, taking some of the harshness out of the horns.

I run mine as two way biamped, with the HF going through the N8000 for the horn and 077, and the woofer basically direct to the electronic crossover (Venu360). I'm pretty sure they'll smoke any stock L300!
I doubt any L300 every got even close to 20hz like these things do!

See my and Alobar's (and now others) write-ups elsewhere here and on Lansing.
This seems to leverage the best of JBL 70s engineering - the N8000s, 077s and CD/horns, while also hugely benefiting from their 21st century dual drive low THD woofers....not to mention 70s cabinet making skills.

The bottom line for me is that these ancient JBLs now sound so good that I'm finally investing heavily in source upgrades for the first time in more than 10 years.

Have fun, no matter which way you go!!
(But, if I could get BMWCCA's 4345s for equivalent cost, I'd sure be tempted!! Wow.)

PS. Regarding my first comment, about cabinet sale-ability:
I recently sold off some of my Eames furniture to a local MCM reseller.
When he came over to inspect/evaluate the sofa, he was entirely distracted by the L200s - he couldn't stop looking at them, and asked more questions about them than the Eames sofa (worth way more than the speakers).
He was a very nice buy, but I could tell he was thinking 'man I could turn a profit on those in an instant' without knowing anything more than they were JBLs, and how they looked, design-wise.
Huh. Who knows....?

 

[SaturationPt]

L200 cabs are the same volume eh? I'll watch for a pair, might be a cheaper alternative.

I already have a pair of 2235Hs, planned to use 2270/H92/L91 for the mid (have) and 2405 for the HF (have), and although I have some crossovers I'd like to try either tri-amp (DSP) or bi-amp (DSP w/ N8000 or N7000 w/ resistor haven't decided). You're right though, the horn will require more clearance from my initial estimate.

I had thought about using PR15Cs and going passive, ... not exactly a match according to JBL though and needs a lot of baffle so probably not.

 

[nedseg]

Yup...5 cu.ft. That phrase is what got me chasing new & better woofers originally - search LHS for '5cu.ft. cabinet' for lots of comments!! The L200s are just slightly under that.
Alobar has done well tri-amping his horns & 077s & NDs - I already had the N8000s added to my L200s back then 70s (JBL consultation), so didn't need to bother with that.
Today the cost of N8000s would sure make a DSP xover solution more cost effective.

Yah, I'd sell the 2235s (while they still have great re-sale value (NOT trying to be offensive here, really!) and buy 2216NDs....
I spent the first year or two in retirement researching 'better woofers' and found too many issues with 2235s.
Then when I heard a pair of DIY M2s locally, and realized they were also optimized for "5 cu.ft' cabinets, I was hooked....clean, crisp, really DEEP bass. Didn't even have to modify the L200 ports!!

Literally earth-shaking - last night I was listening to some electronic music and was surprised to hear Really Good thunder effects in it. Turned out it was a REAL storm approaching rapidly - but I could NOT tell the difference!!

Toddalin has posted a lot about 2235s as well as doghouse boxes for the horns (and much much more) about L200s...he's the absolute master on those things as far as I'm concerned. (He also made some discoveries about improvements to the N8000, which I have NOT made yet.)

Back in the 70s I also spent a LOT of time in 'my' high end audio store comparing my L200s to the L300s, and just wasn't impressed enough with the difference to upgrade - not that they weren't better, just not THAT much better.
2216NDs are. Also helps that they just Drop Right In.
The store experts agreed...but also that 4350s (which I also spent a lot of time with) were just a LOT better - now THAT would b a build!!

I chose to use a Venu360 for DSP and crossover - partly b/c it could do either 2-way or 3-way xovers (I have sub on there as well), and was spec'd really well for pro gear....plus can implement roomEQ, plus LOTS of other goodies.
But, there are lots of other choices for that as well.

Whatever you do, I sure hope you have fun with it!
Every. Single. Time. I listen to these modified 200s I'm just astounded by how GOOD they sound now, and it's been more than a year now, AND I spent about 40yrs listening to them before that!!

 

[SaturationPt]

I understand the 2216 love, but feel that I'll just buy a pair of 4367s if I want 2216s.

I need to consider whether I want to dump $$$ into building speakers that I can personalize, or just sell the drivers and move on. I'm back on the fence again. And you're right, the drivers are worth more than anything I could build with them. At one point that wasn't a concern, but as they have had birthdays in boxes in my closet I question whether I'll ever build anything.

 

[markshan]

Thanks for all of the replies.

The desire to build like the L300s is I guess romantic,

If I may ask, since your desire is romantic, what does resale value matter? It's okay to do something just because you want to. So you lose a few hundred dollars. This world is full of people who put that up their noses every day.

 

[SaturationPt]

Great question, one I'm not sure I know the answer to. Seems like it should be simple, and when I buy a pair of speakers that I know have value at least close to what I pay it isn't a concern, but putting $1k, $2k, ?? into a pair of well-made cabinets and knowing that I'm building firewood, ... I know there's a strong chance I'll find something else I want to try and send them down the road.

I justify a lot about this hobby, but most of it on the assumption that what I buy I either keep for a long time or it loses little value. Paying a shop to build speakers that have no value is probably more like the "up their noses" habit you compared it to, ... and I'd rather burn up a set of Pirellis at the track than do it this way I think.

 

[gogofast]

Great question, one I'm not sure I know the answer to. Seems like it should be simple, and when I buy a pair of speakers that I know have value at least close to what I pay it isn't a concern, but putting $1k, $2k, ?? into a pair of well-made cabinets and knowing that I'm building firewood, ... I know there's a strong chance I'll find something else I want to try and send them down the road.

I justify a lot about this hobby, but most of it on the assumption that what I buy I either keep for a long time or it loses little value. Paying a shop to build speakers that have no value is probably more like the "up their noses" habit you compared it to, ... and I'd rather burn up a set of Pirellis at the track than do it this way I think.

Totally understand what you're saying.
Best to find a pair of L300 near you. With patience, it's possible to find a pair for $2.5k - 3.5k. Can easily resell when you're ready to move on. No harm done.

 

[mech986]

IMO, if you’re into cabinet building and veneering, you’re paying for the challenge and fun of duplicating a known and iconic design, be it the L300, 4333, or even the L200 (with maybe a slight size/volume bump to avoid the doghouse, and then adjust the porting).

If you’re really good, OCD and detail oriented, you may build a very close and proper duplicate, that with good veneer, badging and foilcals, look like OEM. With good and well built grille structures and fabric, they may be virtually indistinguishable from real. However, value would only be had with attractive veneers that others would want - Walnut, Rosewood, maybe mahogany and a few others. Unusual choices like maple, oak, sapelle, burlwood, etc. may look fabulous but might find fewer buyers.

OTOH, you might consider that the 4333 was designed for soffit mounting higher up. The L300 and L200 are tilted back to mitigate floor loading a bit and aim the mid/HF up to a seated head position. IMO though, they all could benefit from being off the ground 6-12 inches to tighten up the bass.

For a true DIY, you might consider building a taller box to get the woofer up higher, then install the 2420/H92 mid-horn with slant lens on a separate flat baffle mounted above and then the 077/2405 above that. HJames did that similarly with her L200 and a Smith 2397 Horn and 2405. With that, you can play with acoustic centers depth wise and inter-driver distances.

Lastly, with the 2216ND, you may get better bass, but many prefer to augment the low end with a B460 or 4645 approach, an 8 cu ft cabinet with a JBL 2242/2245 or equivalent 2268HPL 18” subwoofer drivers. The Neo driver may only require a 6 cu ft vented enclosure or a 2.7 cu ft sealed enclosure, see Parts Express.

Choices.

 

[SaturationPt]

Yes, have a 4645B, effortless bass. It's hard to compare a 5' cu box.

This group is full of knowledge, happy I asked, and I figured there'd be the BTDT answer that I sought.

Still maybe on the fence, will keep the drivers in the dark for a while longer and decide. Who knows, maybe a nice pair of large JBLs will come along.

 

[nedseg]

I should probably apologize for being such a ND fanboy - I tend to go a bit overboard about it since it so nicely solved something that had been bugging the hell out of me for Decades!!
I totally get the 'birthdays passed in boxes' comment - I for sure have many many boxes of project parts/supplies doing that!

Though, having built enough cabinets over the years, a nice square box seems easier to tackle than most of the other project prototype things I have cued up!!

With a fairly inexpensive sheet of walnut plywood, I think I could whip out a pretty decent 4333 box in a day or so.
Add another day for solid walnut nose trim and other 'fixin's...
I have both a small table saw and track saw, so the cuttin' would be easy, but if not looking for perfection would use dado'd corners rather than miters if possible (just happen to be addressing that on a project about to hit sawdust now!).

Hm. Wonder if you could get two 4333s out of a single sheet?
Probably not, but could use MDF or cheaper plywood for the back and bottoms and baffle...seems to me you should be able to build a pair of 4333 boxes for a couple hundred or so? (I just got a fairly nice sheet of walnut veneer 5 ply for just over $100, and came 'wrapped' in some pretty decent MDF!).
But, yah, I wouldn't go overboard on the cabinets if you are concerned about getting your money back out of them someday.

And, I should also probably amend the harshness of my comments about the 2235s, too - one thing I've agreed on with my friend with the DIY M2s (who also has a pair of DIY L300s, but with smith horns) is that they DO have a 'musicality' about them that is very lovely - and can be a nice antidote to the clinicality of the M2s.

I have a 4645C sub too - though not really needed (I got it before trying the NDs) - as it doesn't go quite as deep, it sure adds some 'authoritah' to the deepest stuff- and sure is a whole lot of SLAM for the money.

It is definitely not as clean/crisp as the NDs, though. I have not really studied/compared the specs on the 2242H vs. the NDs, but my impression is that the 42H is heavier, maybe more efficient, and goes LOUD really quickly, but also sounds a bit 'muddy' in comparison. I will say the 45C transmits VLF to the house structure much more effectively
(Talk about bad speaker investments - those things seem to be nearly impossible to sell on CL or ebay - too big, too heavy...which is how I got mine for a 'song'!).
If I were really tight on room space, I'd probably sell it off now, but have plenty of room, and made a nice 'blue JBL' cloth grill for it, so it ain't Too Ugly.
If I didn't already have it, I doubt I'd get one at all - the NDs do 22hz really well.

And yah, if 4367s were an option, I'd have done that for sure, but am way too money constrained to even consider...but would do it in an instant if I was offered an even swap!! <grin>. I did consider a DIY 4367 (or even M2), but the cost of the HF driver/waveguide (not to mention the passive crossovers - yike$!) took that way out of consideration.

I can't disagree with the comment about raising the L200/300s up a bit - but my main listening chair (Eames Lounge) sits very low, and just happens to put my ears level with the horns/077s!, so got lucky there...raising them up higher would ruin the the aesthetics too, IMHO...but also easy enough to test out.

I've never 'chased' another speakers - basically, I spent a TON of money on the L200s when I was, what, 22? and have been kind of determined to wring the best out of them. Funny thing is that there are DECADES of folks who have also tackled that - from Nelson Pass and many many others far more knowledgeable than I!
Just the 'since the internet' forum threads on the 200/300s that go back to the late 90s took me most of year to chase down and absorb!!! I even bought a view old magazine articles on CD! (not helpful, though).

Anyway, hope you Do Something with those Boxes - and, again, I will say I'm just grinning from ear to ear every time I listen to these things today!! Have fun, regardless!!