JBL Stadium Disappointment & Help

[bluewizard]

I got a good deal...sort of.

As you may or may not know, JBL has quit making the JBL Venue Stadium speaker.

See link below -

JBL Stadium -
http://jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=STADIUM&CheckProduct=Y

Now let's see if I can make a long story even longer.

I've been looking at the JBL Stadiums and based on specs and the JBL reputation, I assume they were a good speaker. My first mistake.

So, I get a email from Fry.com indicating that they have Polk Audio R50's on sale for only $60 each ($85 each shipped to my door). The R50's are a 2-way tower with two 6.5"' woofers. (routinely available for about $200 each)

So, I go to BestBuy knowing they have one last display pair of JBL Stadiums (2x8"woofer, 4" mid, 1"high). On all of the woofers and one of the Midrange, the dust covers/domes were pushed in, but the sounded OK, no buzzing or scrapping. Individually, meaning if you put your ear right up to any give speaker, the sound good. Clear unassuming high, crisp midrange, decent base.

So, I made a low-ball offer of $100 each. Eventually they went for it, and I went home the happy owner of a pair of JBL Stadium towers.

Let's put is this way, I've always wondered if JBL was still putting out first rate speakers, or if they were riding on their reputation. Apparently the answer is - riding on their reputation.

My old speakers are a pair of large (13"x17.5"x26") 'bookshelf (ha-ha) speakers, ported with a 12" CTS woofer, 3x9 mid horn, and a 3x3 Piezo tweeter, off-the-shelf crossover (800/5khz). I built these for my college woodworking project. Birch over high density particle board (50lbs per speaker, finished)

I know now that I completely screwed up the port tuning. After making a few calcualtion (thanks Internet), I determined the cabinet is tuned to about 70 to 80hz. The woofer has a resonance of 28hz. Live and learn.

So, I connect the JBL's to my 50watt/ch Onkyo stereo receive and they sound OK. Music goes in, music comes out, it sound OK.

I listen to three albums, then get the idea to hook up my ill-designed old speakers as the rear 'B' speakers. Then put on Buddy Guy - Feels Like Rain, and switch between the two speakers.

My $150/pair (not counting labor) home-make speakers with bad port tuning BLEW the $600 (retail, $400 to $500 discount) JBL's away. The JBL's sounded like they were buried in a pile of dirt. Especially in the midrange.

My horn mid and highs were light, clear, and airy. The JBL muffled droney and muddy. Oddly though when I put my ear right up to each individual speaker, they sound fine, but when I step back it just muffles together.

Any hope for a dead broke guy who spend $200 on some crappy JBL speakers?

I considered trying to replace the midrange with something better, but the system crossovers are 300hz and 4000hz, so it is going to be hard to find a replacement speaker for this system.

Now I'm sure you purist will say 'no...no...these are delicate, highly engineered, finely tuned systems, you can't just randomly replace one speaker. But keep in mind that they are delicate, highly engineered, finely tuned systems that sound like crap.

If these are $600/pair speakers, then my homemade speakers are $1,000/pair.

Moral of this story, Do-It-Yourself, and even if you do it bad, you still come out ahead over wasting money on delicate, highly engineered, finely tuned ****.

I like horns, they sound light and airy, but where am I going to get a 4" diameter horn that covers 300hz to 4000hz. My next preference is for dome mid, but again 300hz to 4000hz, 4" diameter, and expensive.

That only leaves full range speakers such as the -

Tang Band W4-616SA 4" Shielded Driver ($20.62 each) -
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=264-818

Sensitivity 88db; rated sensitivity of the JBL's 91db

And, is it going to matter? Am I just dreaming the impossible dream or is there some way to bring these speakers around?

I was going to retire my homemade speakers, but now I think I'll just plug the existing port holes and cut a new hole to tune the cabinets down around 30hz. Despite the ridiculous port tuning on my speaker, the bass is clean, clear, accurate, and moderately full. Easily comparable to, if not better than, the JBLs.

When I think of the speakers I could have built for $200, or the improvements to the my existing speakers, I cringe at the thought of foolishly having purchase the JBL crappola line of speakers.

So... any way to bring these JBL's around?

Help!

steve/bluewizard

 

[sealy]

Zilch once advised me never to install a tweeter with lower sensitivity than the other drivers in the system. If it is more sensitive, the tweeter can always be padded down, but not the reverse. I've also got a couple of pairs of the newer JBL's. I'm not very impressed, either.

 

[kfa888]

Then put on Buddy Guy - Feels Like Rain

quick derailment. I saw buddy Guy at an outdoor concert in Portland Oregon and the minute he started doing that song it started to rain. It was actually kinda cool and he stopped in the middle of the song and made a joke about it and provided some spiritual words. Very cool concert from a very cool dude.

 

[Fred Sanford]

So, I go to BestBuy knowing they have one last display pair of JBL Stadiums (2x8"woofer, 4" mid, 1"high). On all of the woofers and one of the Midrange, the dust covers/domes were pushed in, but the sounded OK, no buzzing or scrapping. Individually, meaning if you put your ear right up to any give speaker, the sound good. Clear unassuming high, crisp midrange, decent base.

So, I made a low-ball offer of $100 each. Eventually they went for it, and I went home the happy owner of a pair of JBL Stadium towers.

Let's put is this way, I've always wondered if JBL was still putting out first rate speakers, or if they were riding on their reputation. Apparently the answer is - riding on their reputation.

So, you purchased visibly damaged floor model speakers for a low-ball price, and the sound you hear from them leads you to conclude that JBL no longer makes any quality speakers? I have to say that you've got quite a leap in logic there.

Have you tried playing with placement of the speakers? The only set of JBL towers I have (HP420s) are pretty finicky with placement within the room (they actually also use a small, wide-frequency midrange). They're also the least favorite of all of my JBLs, but I'm OK with it as I paid a low-ball price for them as well.

Good luck, I hope you figure out a way to make them work for you, or flip them for a price that makes you happy.

je

 

[winters860]

My story:

My dad bought a pair of JBL Northridge E30 for my mom from BB, reckoning them better than the more expensive Bose bookshelf speakers but slightly behind the Klipsch.

Flash forward a year - I get into vintage audio and start bringing home homely speakers that SLAUGHTER the JBLs. They were absolute garbage and would only satisfy in the absence of comparison.

I'd hawk your JBLs on CL to recover most or all of what you paid and see what kind of local deals on used speakers I could turn up with $200, rather than try to re-engineer them, honoring that old saw about throwing good money after bad. DIYing a pair from the ground up is great, educational, usually cheaper than equivalent new, etc., etc., but the best bang for the buck can usually be found buying used.

 

[kfa888]

My story:

My dad bought a pair of JBL Northridge E30 for my mom from BB, reckoning them better than the more expensive Bose bookshelf speakers but slightly behind the Klipsch.

Flash forward a year - I get into vintage audio and start bringing home homely speakers that SLAUGHTER the JBLs. They were absolute garbage and would only satisfy in the absence of comparison.

I'd hawk your JBLs on CL to recover most or all of what you paid and see what kind of local deals on used speakers I could turn up with $200, rather than try to re-engineer them, honoring that old saw about throwing good money after bad. DIYing a pair from the ground up is great, educational, usually cheaper than equivalent new, etc., etc., but the best bang for the buck can usually be found buying used.

Smart and right on IMHO :thmbsp:

 

[senna87]

First let me say, I'm made more than my fair share of poor buying decisions before.

Secondly, are you sure you aren't mistaking raw volume for sound quality? Surely your homebuilt speakers that use horns, piezo's, and 12's are going to be much louder than the JBL's, but are you certain they truly sound better? Listen to both at the exact same output level (which will certainly be lower on the knob for your homebuilts) and see what you think.

Lastly, it's obvious you don't like the JBL's, but you got them at an awesome price. Chances are you will be able to sell them for what you have in them on CL or Epay.

 

[bluewizard]

The speaker cabinets between the two speakers are roughly the same. I know it's not real accurate but the external volumes on the JBL's = 3.22Cu.Ft., and on my speakers it is 3.42 Cu.Ft.

JBL = 9.75"w x 14.5"d x 39.375"h (these are no pixie speakers)
My Speakers = 17.5"w x 13"d x 26"h



My speaker uses a 12" bass that is mistuned, but still sounds good. Obviously, being mistuned, it is a little weak in the ultra low end. But compared to the JBL, they are about on par. Once I dialed back the midrange, I was surprised at how well the bass sounded. The JBL's use two 8" woofers. The JBL also has a rear port.

To compare relative effective size of the woofers, if we set a 4.5" speaker as 1, then two 8" speaker are 8.6 and one 12" speaker is 9.9. Meaning, 9.9 times bigger than a 4.5" speaker. So, they are close. That was one of the factors in my buying decision.

My speaker (my homemade speakers) definitely are more efficient. But that is not what is impressing me. Using the A/B speaker switch, I switch between them, and my speakers are expansive. It is difficult to describe how these things sound, it is about like describing how a wine tastes. There are no real objective terms, so you are stuck with metaphors. That said, I would say the JBLs sound constrained, and I don't just mean volume/intensity. Where as, my speakers sound clear, wide and deep. When I switch to my speakers the music comes alive. It has a presence, and aliveness and an airiness to it.

But, that description could be interpreted by the casual reader as simply being louder. And yes, my speaker are louder, noticeably so. But it is not the intensity that grabs me. It is the expansiveness or perhaps we could call it stage presence, and most important of all, clarity. The horn mids and tweeters are razor sharp and without harshness or brashness that sometimes comes from horn. Though that is more luck than design.

I have been listening to these speakers for MANY YEARS, so I could be overly accustom to them, and I'm sure I am. But I do like horns which is why I have them. I keep looking at building new speakers, more as a point of interest rather than an actual plan. And I alway start with dome mids and highs, but it's difficult to come up with a match that is workable with both woofer and tweeter. So, eventually I find myself looking at mid horns again. They will typically cover the working range of 500hz to 12,000hz. So no conflicts there. That opens up a whole range of woofers and tweeters. But they are typically LOUD, you have to dial them way back.

Here is one problem. If I only had the JBLs I probably wouldn't notice the sound quality because it is reasonably good. It is only in contrast to my old speakers that I hear how bad it really is.

Next, and I've already mentioned this, if I listen to the speakers individually on the JBL, that is, put my ear right up to the midrange, it actually sounds pretty good, as do the woofer and tweeter; no noise, no distortion, no buzzing or rattling. It is only when I step back and let it all blend together that it falls apart.

I'm considering popping off the Mids and reversing the polarity, just to see if it makes a difference.

Also, the specs says this is a straight 3-way with 300hz and 4000hz crossovers. I admit that does strike me as odd, but they must know what they are doing.

At the top of the page is a link to the JBL spec sheet with pictures. And for what it might be worth, here is a link to the PDF part list, exploded diagram, and wiring diagram -

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Do It Yourself Guides/Stadium TrblshtGuide.pdf

Some are claiming that I'm hearing my speaker sounding better because I want them to sound better. Believe me that is the last thing I want. That was a very precious $200 that purchased these speakers, $200 that I could ill afford. I absolutely want and expect the JBLs to sound better, but it just isn't happening.

Still, the plan now is to use the JBLs, re-port/retune my old speakers, and sell the JBLs.

I guess the message is two fold - 1.) Live and Learn 2.) don't sell home made speakers short.

Thanks for the comments.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[bluewizard]

It occurred to me that perhaps the reason why my DIY speaker sound more present and more detailed is because the Horn Midrange is simply louder.

So, I've been working to get my horn mid in as close a balance to the JBL as possible.

The Mid has an L-Pad on it. There is a dial on the L-Pad that is marked -

MIN. ------------------ MAX. (Remember, it's in an arc)

With the L-Pad pointer just below the '.' on 'MIN.' it is at full turn and completely off. To balance even remotely with the JBL, I turn it up to the 'I' in 'MIN.". It is as low as it can possibly go and not be OFF.

At this level, the contrast between the two speakers is not as great as it was, but my horn speakers still have very fine detail; crisp and clean.

I was curious what it would cost to duplicate my speakers today, so I looked them up. Exact duplicate are not possible but the closest I would come which includes a Dayton Classic 12" woofer, came to a total of $83.90 each (woofer, 3x9 MidHorn, Piezo Tweeter, L-Pad, 800/5000 crossover).

If I have some place to work and some tools, I'd be tempted to build another set.

The Horn Mid only cost $20, I defy anyone to find anything that can equal it for both versatility, range, and sound quality for the same price.

No real point here, I just thought you might find it interesting how far DOWN I have to turn the mid-horn to equal the JBL. It is a low as it can possible go and still have sound coming out; that's low.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[Zilch]

JBL doesn't provide the schematics in the newer consumer Tech Manuals, apparently, and the drivers are 9-digit stock numbers, so I have no clue what's actually in Stadia, other than "Flowerpot."

You really need to measure to balance the drivers in your DIYs, and that can be as simple as using a R/S SPL meter and tone disc for the purpose. If "balanced" is as far down in the L-pad adjustment range as you indicate, then you need an additional fixed L-pad to knock the driver sensitivity down into the normal adjustment range, 12:00 - 3:00 on the dial.

If you are seriously into DIY, then don't mess with the Stadiums. Start from scratch with EconoWave and your 12" woofer in a properly-tuned box. Horns are different, yes, but you need to move up the quality scale from what you're presently doing, stick with two-way, and get it right.... :yes:

The Horn Mid only cost $20, I defy anyone to find anything that can equal it for both versatility, range, and sound quality for the same price.

And which one would that be?

 

[bluewizard]

The horn that is closest to the one I have and is available today is this -

4" x 10" Horn Midrange @ $19.60 EA
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=280-050

Keep in mind, my approach is not about getting the best, it is getting the best for the money; usually very LOW money.

I think the raw components for my original speakers, probably totaled about $50. I think I might have started with the woofer and the horn and made a cheap speaker in a particle board cabinet. Then later in woodworking class, I made my current cabinets and added the 3-way crossover and piezo tweeters.

The tuning flaw was because I didn't listen to the design book I had. Back then getting decent port tube was difficult, and I thought I found a brilliant way around that, but instead, I was a rookie idiot who made a rookie idiot mistake, but even with that gross mistake, the speaker still turned out good. I have thoroughly enjoyed them for many years and have generally found them better than the speakers of any of my friends. But keep in mind, most of my friends were even bigger idiots than I was, so that's not really saying much.

So, even though I spent $50 per cabinet on the raw components, I didn't spend it all at once.

That's how these projects go, they are never really done until you sell them and start again.

To fix my existing cabinets, which look very nice, all I have to do it plug the existing holes and cut a circle for a 2" PVC pipe about 4" long, that will tune the cabinets down around 30hz.

And you read my mind on the midrange. Keep in mind that I would like the midrange louder than it is now, but I'm trying to get it as close to the JBL as possible. And I do plan to add a fixed L-Pad attenuator to make the working range in the 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock area. The L-Pads seem to get a little scratchy at the ends, so best to be nearer the middle.

I plan a separate post on the modifications to the existing speakers.

As to this -

"...you need to move up the quality scale from what you're presently doing, stick with two-way, and get it right...."

Well, "up the quality scale" is where I thought I was moving. Instead, the JBL are just fill-in until I fix my DIY speakers. I know there are 2-way projects out there, but not that would suit me. I have a long list of them in my bookmarks.

Personally, I cringe at the thought of anything smaller than a 12" woofer. I consider designs that use 2x8" or even 2x10", but from a cost perspective, they are far more expensive than a nearly identical 12" woofer. So, why fight it, go with the 12", and you will have trouble finding a tweeter to match any affordable 12" woofer. Yet, the horn mid covers a wide range, and is flat, clear, and cheap. Once you have that wide range Mid, there are several options for the tweeter. I chose Piezo because they are cheap, but I've seen several other on the low end of the scale that would do the job fine. Again, why fight it?

I think if I were going to re-invest whatever I get for the JBLs, I would invest it in doing a better job of duplicating what I already have. But even doing that means having some decent woodworking tools, which I don't have.

So, I'll just patch what I do have and enjoy it for many more years to come.

steve/bluewizard

 

[Zilch]

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939

 

[bluewizard]

Zilch, not sure if you are suggesting this link because you think it is a project I might be interested in, or if it is just for the data on controlling the horn levels.

If it is for a project, then it is leagues out of my price range. The Selenium driver alone is $50 each not counting the waveguide. The miscellaneous crossover parts are $65 each. Dial that back to $85 for all the components and we might be getting somewhere.

Again, I'm sure you all think I am a hack, but tests or no tests, my speakers sound good. No, not $1,500 good, but for $250 to $300 signed, sealed, and delivered per pair (plus some labor) for a 12" 3-way system, I think they will do the job nicely.

If I were going to build them again, with all the resources available on the Internet, I think I could do a much better job on the cabinets. I would still start with an off-the-shelf crossover, and if I'm ever not happy with the results. Constructing new custom crossovers could be a project for the future. DIY projects - the gift that keeps on giving.

If you were simply pointing me to a thread that dealt with taming the high levels of a horn mids, then thanks, there was some valuable information there.

A slight amendment here to my original statements. I suspect that for many people the JBL Stadium is an excellent speaker for the money, assuming they didn't pay too much. But, for the money, and compared to my speakers, I simply wasn't impressed. Now maybe if i had heard the JBL E90/ES90, which is similar ,or the JBL L890, I might have been more impressed, but those speakers cost a king's ransom especially when you consider the retail price.

I'm sure JBL does make some impressive speakers in their Reference/Studio/Pro line. But the Venue line of Stadium speakers has ,so far, been a disappointment. If I had bought them expecting $200/pair speakers, I would probably shrug my shoulders and say 'not bad', but I was expecting $600/pair speaker, and so far, they have fallen short.

I say that for Zilch's benefit, as I see he is a JBL fan. I'm also very sure if you can hand pick your own JBL raw speakers and work them into home designed speaker system, the results could and would be superb. I'm not complaining about all JBL speakers, just these particular speakers.

Again, thanks to all who replied, it may not seem like it, but it has all been helpful.

Steve/bluewizard

 

[dc270]

Your comparisons between the two speaker systems may be the real issue here. FWIW any horn loaded system, good bad or indifferant, WILL sound much differant when compared to a typical cone driver system. The way they load and move the air to make noise is radically two differant camps. Efficiency is typically much higher, then the actual sound is another noticable issue. If you compare apples to apples then what you are hearing would have merrit. Sounds to me you bought a cone speaker system that cannot compare to the (mid/high) horn system you currently are using. Being "better" is a subjective thing to the buyer as well. Even comparing the dual woofer alignment to one 12" you have will again make a hearing differance as the xover point are probably much differant, the polar responces, etc.
If you really like what you have then make further investments/ improvments in it. You will probably learn a lot doing that and have the pride of actually doing it. I know I get a lot of satisfaction of taking a questionable factory design and making it better. These days it is not all that hard to do given some of the parts they tend to use to make a price point, etc to sell in mass quanity.
Have a good one any direction you go/
DC

 

[Zilch]

Zilch, not sure if you are suggesting this link because you think it is a project I might be interested in, or if it is just for the data on controlling the horn levels.

If it is for a project, then it is leagues out of my price range. The Selenium driver alone is $50 each not counting the waveguide. The miscellaneous crossover parts are $65 each. Dial that back to $85 for all the components and we might be getting somewhere.

Again, I'm sure you all think I am a hack, but tests or no tests, my speakers sound good. No, not $1,500 good, but for $250 to $300 signed, sealed, and delivered per pair (plus some labor) for a 12" 3-way system, I think they will do the job nicely.

No, *I* am the notorious hack.

I'm saying, in the context of you having spent $200 for the Stadia, upgrading your existing DIYs is a more rational endeavor than trying to mod JBL's engineered design, and you can kick them substantially upward in quality and performance for well less than that $200 with EconoWave, and, as DC suggests, learn quite a bit in the process.... :thmbsp:

 

[stickman]

I'd recommend searching AK for the threads on how to remove dents from dustcaps so you can get a better price when you dump the JBL's. If they sound crappy to you, just ditch them for as much money as you can get and be done with it. As for improper box tuning on your homemade jobbers, such tuning will not be optimum but the results can still be more than acceptable. Before plopping down any more money on speakers that aren't widely praised on this forum, be sure to do some critical in person listening first and don't go on brand name or published specs at all! Craigs List or a thrift store are more likely to hold something worthy in a quality vintage speaker at a decent price that Best Buy these days........

 

[bluewizard]

Actually, I got nearly all the dents out. I used fiberglass re-enforced packing tape. Masking tape simply doesn't have enough adhesion. Though there is still one small dent in the side of one of the Mids, barely noticeable; I may still work on that.

I also discovered that if you press the tape on the dent and pull back, you are more likely to pull the tape off and still leave the dent.

But if you press the middle of the tape into the dent and pull the ends of the tape to the side, the center of the tape will rise up and maintain better adhesion to the dent Therefore, more likely to actually pull the dent out.

Note the JBLs have plastic coated paper dust domes. The tape peels off the plastic coating relatively easy. But if they were uncoated paper domes, likely the tape would have peeled paper off the dome, and that wouldn't have been good.

Two of the woofers, while the domes are back to normal, has slight crease edges in the dome that represent the edges of the dent, but they still look far better than they did.

Again, thanks to all who took the time to reply.

 

[titanstats]

I'm saying, in the context of you having spent $200 for the Stadia, upgrading your existing DIYs is a more rational endeavor than trying to mod JBL's engineered design, and you can kick them substantially upward in quality and performance for well less than that $200 with EconoWave, and, as DC suggests, learn quite a bit in the process.... :thmbsp:

The Zilch has a good point there -- sell off the Stadiums, and put the proceeds towards an upgrade of the speakers that you do like. Why start over when you can upgrade what you have?

 

[mikebake]

So, I made a low-ball offer of $100 each. Eventually they went for it, and I went home the happy owner of a pair of JBL Stadium towers.

Let's put is this way, I've always wondered if JBL was still putting out first rate speakers, or if they were riding on their reputation. Apparently the answer is - riding on their reputation.

Any hope for a dead broke guy who spend $200 on some crappy JBL speakers?

steve/bluewizard

If you dine in a dumpster, everythings going to taste like crap.
You spent Neon money and wonder why it doesn't go like a Viper??! C'mon, man. You're just sampling JBL's offerings to the markets bottom feeders. Surely you understand this.
JBL still offers many fine speakers, all the way up to the DD6600; they're just not $100. Talking about JBL living off their reputation makes no sense when you're buying their low end stuff.

 

[johnda]

Just a little tiny comment here. You said that when you listened closely to the JBL speakers they sounded clear but when you moved away from the speakers they became unclear, or something like that. To me, that sounds like an out of phase problem. I hate to say this, but there have been times when I have known of speakers that were wired out of phase at the factory. I would check all my connections. First the ones you made, then if no improvement, take a gander at the internal wiring. It can't hurt.