Jelco TK-850s tonearm on my SL-1200MK5 (w/ audio samples)

[Q-E-2]

Hi there!

I thought it was time for me to install a Jelco TK-850s tonearm on my SL-1200MK5. The superseded tonearm was a KAB modded and rewired Technics tonearm, so it wasn't in its original form.

The armboard chosen is sold by Ammonite Audio, as well as the improved mounting collar.
It's wasn't a difficult task but it took me about 2 hours because there are a lot of screws to unscrew/screw

There's a quick Jelco/Technics comparison at the end of the video

PLUS:

I've prepared some before/after needledrop samples, so you can evaluate the differences.

Regards!

 

[Q-E-2]

Mods: Please, if you could delete the 'last night' in the title, I would appreciate it! Thank you

 

[markd51]

That looks really sweet. The new armboard appears to match so nicely too.

 

[Ilikevinyl]

Listened to the video. Technics arm has more front to back depth, better mid range. Jelco arm has a wider, more open sound stage.

Have you tried different Silicone oil weight for the Techincs?

 

[mkane]

.......

 

[Ilikevinyl]

Hi there!

I thought it was time for me to install a Jelco TK-850s tonearm on my SL-1200MK5. The superseded tonearm was a KAB modded and rewired Technics tonearm, so it wasn't in its original form.

The armboard chosen is sold by Ammonite Audio, as well as the improved mounting collar.
It's wasn't a difficult task but it took me about 2 hours because there are a lot of screws to unscrew/screw

There's a quick Jelco/Technics comparison at the end of the video

PLUS:

I've prepared some before/after needledrop samples, so you can evaluate the differences.

Regards!

.......
View attachment 2218393

My Jelco Brothers!

 

[cafe latte]

I have both Technics arms and Jelco, both are really good, but I would not swap out a Technics arm for a Jelco as IMO is is a sideways step at best and if you have a rewire and oil damper on the Technics probably a step down, the Technics is easier to use for sure and it does not sound any worse than the Jelco.
The single best upgrade you can do to a Technics arm is the 5 dollar silicone tube insert when you rewire. I research ages ago and got interested in constrained damping, SME V has it. Basically adding damping to the outside of the arm tube it is not constrained, inside it is and the damping effect is much greater. Anyway I also read about Kab selling these tubes for 5 bucks. I experimented with rubber rings and heatshrink on the outside of the arm tube which surprisingly did very little. Dropping the arm tube onto a table it still bounced all over the place and resonated. BUT inserting the rubber tube inside the arm tube the the arm tube dropped onto the table just stops dead with a thunk when dropped. It is impossible to over damp an arm tube, we dont want energy from the cart hanging around at all in the arm or music from the room in the arm and potentially getting to the cart, all the very best arms have internal damping in the tube. The Technics is missing this damping and it is singularly the best thing you can do to improve the Technics arm. My 2c for what it is worth is rewire (may as well as you need to for inserting the rubber tube), add the tube, add an oil damper but dont fill too much then this arm will compete with some really expensive arms. Few arms at any price have the low bearing friction of a Technics arm and with added damping it will compete with some serious arms re resonant peaks too.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

IMO, Technics could have (and should have) improved their tonearms on the new models, even more than they did. They had the perfect opportunity to lengthen the arm a few mm's and adjust the angle sightly so that the Baerwald alignment would be close to perfect without moving the cart forward and pointing it slightly inward. As we all know, the Technics stock alignment is not the theoretical "best" alignment. Kind of a head scratcher why they didn't do that. Jelco appears to have done just that with their newest arms like the 550 and 850 which provide better stock alignment than a stock 750D does.

Baerwald almost always need the cart angled inwards and Japanese arms mostly seem to not be made for Baerwald, used both and I doubt anyone would hear the difference. For those of us (many) who have the new and old Technics I am glad they did not change the length of the arm as it would be a pain in the butt swapping carts between the old and new. I have never failed to get Baerwald on any cart yet with the Technics arm (yes it is forward in the slots) but why is this a problem?
If they did anything I feel that internal damping sound have been done (maybe it has not opened my G up yet..) and maybe oil damping, but oil damping is so easily added, this is really not a big issue at all.
Chris

 

[mkane]

Sideways is better than down

 

[ehoove]

Mods: Please, if you could delete the 'last night' in the title, I would appreciate it! Thank you

Done
Regards,
Jim

 

[bimasta]

The single best upgrade you can do to a Technics arm is the 5 dollar silicone tube insert when you rewire.

In the last arm I made, I used wax to dampen the armtube. I just lit a candle and let the wax run down the inside of the tube. I kept the tube warm so the wax stayed fluid and could run through to the end, and rotated it slowly to coat all surfaces evenly. I got a uniform coating about 1mm thick. The last touch was to stretch the internal wires taut, and imbed them in the wax; wires can vibrate inside the arm, this prevents it.

The armtube was tapered and I didn't have a tapered silicon tube. (And I didn't think of it.)

 

[cafe latte]

In the last arm I made, I used wax to dampen the armtube. I just lit a candle and let the wax run down the inside of the tube. I kept the tube warm so the wax stayed fluid and could run through to the end, and rotated it slowly to coat all surfaces evenly. I got a uniform coating about 1mm thick. The last touch was to stretch the internal wires taut, and imbed them in the wax; wires can vibrate inside the arm, this prevents it.

The armtube was tapered and I didn't have a tapered silicon tube. (And I didn't think of it.)

The tube is remarkable, I was wondering where I had seen if before, just been to the rifle range and my friend who is in a wheel chair was there and he has a pee tube poking down his trouser leg, seems to be the same stuff.
Chris

 

[bimasta]

Uh-huh.

 

[Q-E-2]

Listened to the video. Technics arm has more front to back depth, better mid range. Jelco arm has a wider, more open sound stage.

Have you tried different Silicone oil weight for the Techincs?

Thanks for sharing your findings To answer your question: no, I only used the silicone provided by KAB.

I have both Technics arms and Jelco, both are really good, but I would not swap out a Technics arm for a Jelco as IMO is is a sideways step at best and if you have a rewire and oil damper on the Technics probably a step down, the Technics is easier to use for sure and it does not sound any worse than the Jelco.
The single best upgrade you can do to a Technics arm is the 5 dollar silicone tube insert when you rewire. I research ages ago and got interested in constrained damping, SME V has it. Basically adding damping to the outside of the arm tube it is not constrained, inside it is and the damping effect is much greater. Anyway I also read about Kab selling these tubes for 5 bucks. I experimented with rubber rings and heatshrink on the outside of the arm tube which surprisingly did very little. Dropping the arm tube onto a table it still bounced all over the place and resonated. BUT inserting the rubber tube inside the arm tube the the arm tube dropped onto the table just stops dead with a thunk when dropped. It is impossible to over damp an arm tube, we dont want energy from the cart hanging around at all in the arm or music from the room in the arm and potentially getting to the cart, all the very best arms have internal damping in the tube. The Technics is missing this damping and it is singularly the best thing you can do to improve the Technics arm. My 2c for what it is worth is rewire (may as well as you need to for inserting the rubber tube), add the tube, add an oil damper but dont fill too much then this arm will compete with some really expensive arms. Few arms at any price have the low bearing friction of a Technics arm and with added damping it will compete with some serious arms re resonant peaks too.
Chris

Mm...honestly I don't think it's a 'sideways move'. Although the improved Technics arm is definetelly better than the stock one, this Jelco TK-850s is a bit better for my liking. Anyway, the modded Technics tonearm is well-kept for an eventual use

IMO, Technics could have (and should have) improved their tonearms on the new models, even more than they did. They had the perfect opportunity to lengthen the arm a few mm's and adjust the angle sightly so that the Baerwald alignment would be close to perfect without moving the cart forward and pointing it slightly inward. As we all know, the Technics stock alignment is not the theoretical "best" alignment. Kind of a head scratcher why they didn't do that. Jelco appears to have done just that with their newest arms like the 550 and 850 which provide better stock alignment than a stock 750D does.

BTW, I used Lofgren in this test

 

[Mr Boochie]

Hi there!

I thought it was time for me to install a Jelco TK-850s tonearm on my SL-1200MK5. The superseded tonearm was a KAB modded and rewired Technics tonearm, so it wasn't in its original form.

The armboard chosen is sold by Ammonite Audio, as well as the improved mounting collar.
It's wasn't a difficult task but it took me about 2 hours because there are a lot of screws to unscrew/screw

There's a quick Jelco/Technics comparison at the end of the video

PLUS:

I've prepared some before/after needledrop samples, so you can evaluate the differences.

Regards!

Very nice upload! Both arms sound good to me.


What is the phono pre-amp that you are using?

Thanks!

I'm using a tubed Pro-ject phono DS2 Phono Box. With Raytheon 5751 windmills. Stock SME 3009 Type II (Improved) on Sony 2251. Soundsmith modified Denon DL-103R. Uploaded this last night.

Direct inject (flat EQ) from phono pre-amp into volume controlled mixer sitting on top of camera. Using onboard camera audio section to record video in MP4 option. Uploaded to YouTube in MP4 HD.

Style Council. Shout To The Top. Polydor Record UK. 45RPM. TS X-7. 1984.

 

[cafe latte]

Thanks for sharing your findings To answer your question: no, I only used the silicone provided by KAB.



Mm...honestly I don't think it's a 'sideways move'. Although the improved Technics arm is definetelly better than the stock one, this Jelco TK-850s is a bit better for my liking. Anyway, the modded Technics tonearm is well-kept for an eventual use



BTW, I used Lofgren in this test

I did tests a bit ago and the bearings on the Technics arm are lower friction than the Jelco, the arm tube is similar and Technics has on the fly arm height adjustment that the Jelco is lacking. The skate is better IMO on the Technics as it varies depending on arm position. Basically the Technics is the better arm, and if you damp it then I think you have a better arm for sure than the Jelco. I am not putting the Jelco down, I would not sell mine, but I would not replace a Technics arm with a Jelco either, but my Jelco is not on my Technics and a Technics arm would not fit so very happy with Jelco where it lives.
Chris

 

[cafe latte]

Compatibility is probably the worst reason not to correct something that isn't quite right. Jelco obviously noticed the alignment imperfection and made the correction. Technics has to be aware of their inferior stock alignment, but chose to continue with it anyway. Why would you not design your new and expensive GAE table to the best alignment possible? The alignment is identical to the ancient SL-1200 Mk2. They do a complete redesign and then settle for 98% good enough when 99% could have been achieved??? Maybe Technics believes the difference in alignment strategies is a moot point? Whatever the reason, theoretical distortion numbers don't lie.

Technics are not made for Baewald alignment this is the reason for the alignment of the arm, look at the headshells for the EPC 205cmk3 and 4 which you cant align to Baerwald and then look at many DJ carts like Trackmaster again not possible. Now Loefgren has lowest distortion over the largest part of the disc, Baewald how lowest inner groove, but this also depends where your inner groove is, if like is popular today you have a lot of double albums with short sides Loefgren is the best alignment also it depends how modulated the last track is so lots of factors. I really dont see anything at all wrong with the Technics arm length, it is made to be perfect with carts like the Trackmaster and Concord and there is sufficient room in a standard headshell to achieve any other alignment so cant see what the problem is. Changing the design would limit the use of some carts having perfect alignment, as it is all carts can be aligned to whatever you want.
Chris

 

[Q-E-2]

Very nice upload! Both arms sound good to me.
What is the phono pre-amp that you are using?

In this case I used a Pro-Ject Phono Box RS with Power Box RS Phono. The signal path is displayed on screen

I'm using a tubed Pro-ject phono DS2 Phono Box. With Raytheon 5751 windmills. Stock SME 3009 Type II (Improved) on Sony 2251. Soundsmith modified Denon DL-103R. Uploaded this last night.
Direct inject (flat EQ) from phono pre-amp into volume controlled mixer sitting on top of camera. Using onboard camera audio section to record video in MP4 option. Uploaded to YouTube in MP4 HD.

That setup sounds smooth and nice I also have a Tube Box DS2 with Sylvania 5157 black plates 3 mica NOS tubes

I did tests a bit ago and the bearings on the Technics arm are lower friction than the Jelco, the arm tube is similar and Technics has on the fly arm height adjustment that the Jelco is lacking. The skate is better IMO on the Technics as it varies depending on arm position. Basically the Technics is the better arm, and if you damp it then I think you have a better arm for sure than the Jelco. I am not putting the Jelco down, I would not sell mine, but I would not replace a Technics arm with a Jelco either, but my Jelco is not on my Technics and a Technics arm would not fit so very happy with Jelco where it lives.
Chris

In my experience, the Jelco Tk-850s sounds a bit better, but, of course, I'll keep the modded Technics tonearm, which is no slouch. In fact, the Jelco is now on my sl1200MK2 and the Technics is back on this 1200MK5 Why sould I give up on any of them when I can have them both ;D

 

[Mr Boochie]

In this case I used a Pro-Ject Phono Box RS with Power Box RS Phono. The signal path is displayed on screen

That setup sounds smooth and nice I also have a Tube Box DS2 with Sylvania 5157 black plates 3 mica NOS tubes

In my experience, the Jelco Tk-850s sounds a bit better, but, of course, I'll keep the modded Technics tonearm, which is no slouch. In fact, the Jelco is now on my sl1200MK2 and the Technics is back on this 1200MK5 Why sould I give up on any of them when I can have them both ;D

Thanks, for the response. Your video is quite a bit more professional looking than my simple one-shot, one-tripod look.

5751 are such nice tubes. I'm a big fan of Raytheon 5751 and 12AX7A for decades. Too bad good NOS examples are running out. I'm so glad I bought some sleeves when no one knew about them. At that time, everyone was into Telefunken.

You know, I like that Jelco arm. Maybe, because I don't see it as much as the ever-present Technics arm. It's kind like your wife. You see her everyday, so her looks become almost "matter-of-fact." You don't know what you have, until it's gone.

I gonna keep trying to improve and upload videos. I haven't broke open the Dummies guide to Adobe Premiere Pro, yet. I'm hesitant about the steep learning curve of good editing. One day...

Here's an upload from my stone-stock 1200MkII. It has an Audio Technica 33Sa cartridge, which is one of the best tracking carts I've ever owned. For whatever that is worth.
In HD.

 

[Q-E-2]

Your video looks and sounds very nice My first videos were...crap compared to yours, LOL! Congrats
BTW, that AT-33Sa tickles my senses