MurrayLives
Born to lose, live to win
Nothing sadder than a VG covered Bitches Brew.
Judge Vinyl by it's cover
- Thread starter Condorsat
- Start date
A couple years ago I landed a nice pile of Grateful Dead LPs along with a bunch of rock of the mid 1960's (Airplane, Taj, Traffic..) (all early or first pressings) from an old hippy that had water damage so he threw away all the covers. The LPs cleaned up perfect and despite missing a ton of covers I ended up with a nice stash. He did want a few more dollars then maybe was warranted for coverless LPs but these are minty early Dead with about a dozen great Boots included.
So no, cover is not the first thing I look for or the last thing I use to determine.
So no, cover is not the first thing I look for or the last thing I use to determine.
62vauxhall
Addicted Member
I've bought my share of albums with well worn covers. If the vinyl passes a visual, I'll get it. Ring and edge wear to me means it was likely played often therefore someone liked it - a lot so might be a good LP. If there's no inner sleeve, and a lot of oldies never came with one, I'll steal one from another record.
Ones I won't buy are those that have had obvious bad water damage. Critter nibbling on cardboard I can live with.
Ones I won't buy are those that have had obvious bad water damage. Critter nibbling on cardboard I can live with.
hifitommy
Super Member
i have been doing this for long enough to know that a ratty cover CAN contain a gem but of course, not always. i dislike very much to find a pristine looking slab that has unforgivable flaws. example-i bought a copy of milt jackson's little sunflower, a must have for me as freddie hubbard's playing is really special on it and it is a CTI which means a quality cast of characters and many times, don sebesky's arrangements. it was gorgeous looking and for eight bucks, took it home.
throughout there was a consistent quantity of fine little noise that prompted me to return it to Rockaway Records in Silver Lake California. the counterman challenged me at first that maybe i had bought it at one of their SALES but took my word for it when i denied it, reminding him that i shop there frequently. he just said go pick out something else which was not a problem for me. so i find this pristine jacket on Time Out and when i inspected the contents, it had a nylon sleeve instead of paper. i couldn't tell if it was primo original, of a Classic Records re-press, but either way it was worth the $20 price tag. i gladly paid the difference.
i took it home and when i played it, the loudest noise on it was the tape hiss of the original recording. hearing the faint tape hiss is always good for me as it verifies that it is an analog original.
back to getting grimy fingers from looking through used LPs (or CDs for that matter). one thing that just about breaks my heart is to hear mistracking damage from someone who had bought heavily into the low tracking force wars (or playing a very dirty record) without realizing the damage they would do . every time a dense passage or crescendo occurs, the distortion increases with the loudness of it.
to realize that the stylus has a pressure of about 40k ppsi due to the exceedingly small contact area of the diamond to the vinyl of the record, is a revelation. OR that when too little VTF is applied, that the diamond is accelerated off the one wall of the groove only to smash at speed into the opposite wall with even greater force than the proper vtf would have resulted in, that the damage is irreversible.
from an article by pramanik in AUDIO Magazine excerpted in vinyl engine forum:
"All styli present pressures of 30,000 to 69,000 ppsi with a VTF of 1 gr.
These high pressures have led people to assume that plastic or permanent deformation occurs, the yield point of the vinyl being 14.500 psi. Static indentations in the elastic range can be described by the equation of Hertz.
It appears that no solution exists for the plastic range, especially for
sliding indentation with friction."
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12931
Shure and ADC had recommended VTF in the 0.5-1.0 ranges and it was kind of a low tracking FORCE war. the problem existing was that it wasn't stressed that you should test to see IF there was any actual mistracking occurring. many people just accepted the fact that it was written in the product insert.
just so you can avoid such an occurrence of damage, use a record that most of us have on hand. Steely Dan's Royal Scam. track two on either side will suffice. that is the Caves of Altamira or Haitian Divorce. both have very high energy cymbal crashes that can be easily mistracked.
start using the highest recommended VTF by the maker of your cartridge. play cut 2 on either side of the record and listen for mistracking on the cymbals. if you hear it on first listen, INCREASE the vtf by 0.1gr and listen again. the repeat until mistracking goes away. if after increasing the vtf three successive times, the mistracking is still there, the record was probably already damaged. hopefully, that won't be the case.
if no mistracking is heard at the maximum recommended, then REDUCE the vtf in 0.1gr increments, listening after each change for mistracking (you will recognize it by a shattering sound not found in the sound of a cymbal). once you hear it mistrack, THEN increase the vtf by 0.1gr and you will be safe to play ANY record.
i hope this is clear. if you already own Royal Scam, the test is free. and easy.
throughout there was a consistent quantity of fine little noise that prompted me to return it to Rockaway Records in Silver Lake California. the counterman challenged me at first that maybe i had bought it at one of their SALES but took my word for it when i denied it, reminding him that i shop there frequently. he just said go pick out something else which was not a problem for me. so i find this pristine jacket on Time Out and when i inspected the contents, it had a nylon sleeve instead of paper. i couldn't tell if it was primo original, of a Classic Records re-press, but either way it was worth the $20 price tag. i gladly paid the difference.
i took it home and when i played it, the loudest noise on it was the tape hiss of the original recording. hearing the faint tape hiss is always good for me as it verifies that it is an analog original.
back to getting grimy fingers from looking through used LPs (or CDs for that matter). one thing that just about breaks my heart is to hear mistracking damage from someone who had bought heavily into the low tracking force wars (or playing a very dirty record) without realizing the damage they would do . every time a dense passage or crescendo occurs, the distortion increases with the loudness of it.
to realize that the stylus has a pressure of about 40k ppsi due to the exceedingly small contact area of the diamond to the vinyl of the record, is a revelation. OR that when too little VTF is applied, that the diamond is accelerated off the one wall of the groove only to smash at speed into the opposite wall with even greater force than the proper vtf would have resulted in, that the damage is irreversible.
from an article by pramanik in AUDIO Magazine excerpted in vinyl engine forum:
"All styli present pressures of 30,000 to 69,000 ppsi with a VTF of 1 gr.
These high pressures have led people to assume that plastic or permanent deformation occurs, the yield point of the vinyl being 14.500 psi. Static indentations in the elastic range can be described by the equation of Hertz.
It appears that no solution exists for the plastic range, especially for
sliding indentation with friction."
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=12931
Shure and ADC had recommended VTF in the 0.5-1.0 ranges and it was kind of a low tracking FORCE war. the problem existing was that it wasn't stressed that you should test to see IF there was any actual mistracking occurring. many people just accepted the fact that it was written in the product insert.
just so you can avoid such an occurrence of damage, use a record that most of us have on hand. Steely Dan's Royal Scam. track two on either side will suffice. that is the Caves of Altamira or Haitian Divorce. both have very high energy cymbal crashes that can be easily mistracked.
start using the highest recommended VTF by the maker of your cartridge. play cut 2 on either side of the record and listen for mistracking on the cymbals. if you hear it on first listen, INCREASE the vtf by 0.1gr and listen again. the repeat until mistracking goes away. if after increasing the vtf three successive times, the mistracking is still there, the record was probably already damaged. hopefully, that won't be the case.
if no mistracking is heard at the maximum recommended, then REDUCE the vtf in 0.1gr increments, listening after each change for mistracking (you will recognize it by a shattering sound not found in the sound of a cymbal). once you hear it mistrack, THEN increase the vtf by 0.1gr and you will be safe to play ANY record.
i hope this is clear. if you already own Royal Scam, the test is free. and easy.
