Kabuki and beyond.....why?

[stereofanboy]

I do a lot of buying and selling of stereo stuff and make certain to get some listening time with a piece to verify condition before offering it. I also rotate my keeper items every once in awhile, since I have more than is really necessary. As a result, my system changes fairly often.

A few days ago, I brought a Sansui AU-919 into the system that had been sitting idle for too long. The same day I pulled some Pioneer S-910s out to photograph them and get them ready for new owners. I wanted to keep the music going, so I hooked the AU to some Kabuki Kenwoods I had nearby. What a difference!

I've owned at least 12 pairs of what would be called Kabuki speakers, mostly Sansui, but also others including some that might be considered the best of the Kabuki breed.

There seems to be a huge disconnect between the sound quality of the gear and the sound quality of the speakers available from the same manufacturer. I know those companies had better speakers, like the aforementioned S-910. Judging from the quantities in the used market of today, they didn't seem to be as widely available as the really good amps and receivers. A lot of the very best Japanese speakers were apparently not even offered here.

Was the American stereo salesman supposed to convince a buyer that he needed the resolution of an AU-919 and then also sell him a pair of SP-9000X? Or were they just resigned to him selling their gear paired with JBLs?

The trend continued into the '80s, when they still offered some very fine gear, but their speakers took a step down even from the Kabuki lines. Anyone remember the three feet tall Pioneer and Kenwood speakers that weighed fifteen pounds?

It just doesn't seem to make sense.......

 

[cubdog]

Good question and one I've thought about as well.

I bought my first real system, while in the Navy, in the early seventies. Of course it included kabuki speakers, Sansui in my case. Because of that I wasn't in the stereo market for many years. That's unfortunate I would love to have first hand memories of the audio scene back then.

I always thought US dealers simply did not carry Japanese kabuki speakers and that most if not all of them came from returning servicemen. It seems they would have had a tough time selling them. KLH, Advent, Dynaco, Dahlquist, JBL, Polk etc. would have been tough competition.

cubdog

 

[RS Steve]

There was a time when it was a competition to see which company could pack the most drivers in a cabinet, and add bling to the looks. People actually went for that thinking more is always better. Most of the serious speaker companies didn't get caught up in that though, it was more about quality sound. When you study the history of who impacted speaker development over the years, you realize the companies that hired these experts usually had the best designs and stayed away from the fads.

 

[cubdog]

There was a time when it was a competition to see which company could pack the most drivers in a cabinet, and add bling to the looks. People actually went for that thinking more is always better. Most of the serious speaker companies didn't get caught up in that though, it was more about quality sound. When you study the history of who impacted speaker development over the years, you realize the companies that hired these experts usually had the best designs and stayed away from the fads.

I think I understand what you're saying but I would have to disagree to a point.

To say the companies that are synonymous with kabuki designs were not serious speaker companies would be false. Take a look at the various designs that were never released in the US and you might change your mind.

cubdog

 

[Copa1934]

I think I understand what you're saying but I would have to disagree to a point.

To say the companies that are synonymous with kabuki designs were not serious speaker companies would be false. Take a look at the various designs that were never released in the US and you might change your mind.

cubdog

If you simply go back and research ads it becomes quite apparent that it was a "market" driven thing. Those who invested the most in advertising claimed both the most attention and the most sales. A retailer would be either stupid to buck this trend, or skilled at their work. Meaning they could sell something based on performance rather than the glamorous ads that prevailed.

Marketing also drove product specs, or the final specs we'll say. Which of course would include aesthetics.

I kind of agree with Steve, but I also believe that to some degree the idea that many drivers would better reproduce such a broad band of sound that the idea kind of fed on itself, more drivers just because. Take a look at many Zenith console systems from the 70's and earlier. They not only had many drivers, but most were horns except for the woofer. Not to mention horns, being more sensitive, could deliver gobs of sound with low power tube amps. Quality? Well sometimes I guess.

As for the military, certainly this played a huge role. The hey day for these speakers were the Vietnam era. Quite a huge number of enlisted, and a very large "captive" audience for selling stuff, including audio.

Only place I could walk in and routinely see kabuki "like" speakers was RS. Thankfully they didn't get into the multi driver systems the way other companies did.

 

[toxcrusadr]

It makes sense that US dealers offered what sold the most and manufacturers made it for them. But at the same time it also seems weird that companies that made great electronics did not offer many great speakers to go with them in the US. Maybe the fact they were heavily marketing and selling mass market junk affected their reputation enough that they didn't expect buyers who wanted great electronics would consider their good speakers, so they didn't try, and they just left the upper end of the speaker market to AR, Advent, JBL, Klipsch etc.

 

[KingBubba]

Just from a preference standpoint, I have always preferred the sound of two driver speaker. When I started to hear multi-multi driver speakers there was usually a unpleasant grit to the sound. I must say that I have never heard any of the high end speakers such as the Apogee line of column type multi driver speakers. From my limited experience less is more.

 

[Copa1934]

It makes sense that US dealers offered what sold the most and manufacturers made it for them. But at the same time it also seems weird that companies that made great electronics did not offer many great speakers to go with them in the US. Maybe the fact they were heavily marketing and selling mass market junk affected their reputation enough that they didn't expect buyers who wanted great electronics would consider their good speakers, so they didn't try, and they just left the upper end of the speaker market to AR, Advent, JBL, Klipsch etc.

Another possibility is a stronger "home" market. Look at the high demand for our USA made Vintage speakers in Japan. They're sucking this stuff up as fast as it can be listed. Likely because "our" speakers weren't marketed heavily there.

It's probably quite complex, with many things at play.

Going back to the military explanation, why would you market the "cream" IN the USA (and deal with the cost of marketing), when you have a lucrative deal with the Military AND a captive audience? Kind of hard to lose in that deal.

 

[ChopperChas]

I'm curious what the sound would be like if I put the drivers from my Pioneer CS-922As into some old cerwin vega enclosures. I'd have to find a blown pair of 15" CVs. The highs are really nice out of the Pioneers... that horn tweeter is sweet. But the bass is a total mess. The cabinet is just too small for a 15" woofer....

Charles.

 

[RS Steve]

I think I understand what you're saying but I would have to disagree to a point.

To say the companies that are synonymous with kabuki designs were not serious speaker companies would be false. Take a look at the various designs that were never released in the US and you might change your mind.

cubdog

If you read what I said you'll notice the word MOST, not ALL.

 

[Copa1934]

I'm curious what the sound would be like if I put the drivers from my Pioneer CS-922As into some old cerwin vega enclosures. I'd have to find a blown pair of 15" CVs. The highs are really nice out of the Pioneers... that horn tweeter is sweet. But the bass is a total mess. The cabinet is just too small for a 15" woofer....

Charles.

It would help to know the T/S of the woofers before hand, if possible. Maybe someone near you has Woofer Tester or DATS software. I have the latter and I like it a lot. Great tool for measuring speakers BEFORE investing in cabinets and such.

 

[Duke58]

By "kabuki" I guess y'all are referring to Japanese?

My first stereo was the first major purchase of my life. I was a US Marine stationed in Okinawa. I took home $275 every two weeks and my stereo cost about $1800 all together- Sansui integrated amp (AU-717), Sansui tuner (TU-717) Aiwa cassette deck, Kenwood turntable and Sansui speakers. I really wanted a pair of JBL speakers, but they cost almost double the price of Sansui speakers. As soon as I got stateside, I bought a pair of Polk Audio RTA-12's (which I still own). That gear got a workout every night and I loved it like a child. It all came down to money- you could buy a stereo system tax free and ship it home for free. The American (Denny's since were calling speakers by restaurant names) speakers were known to be "better" but more costly.

What I really wanted was Marantz, Fisher or McIntosh, I've got all three today. Bought them all used and with a little work and advice from this forum, they're working and looking good. I run em with Polk RTA-12's, a pair of Omega speakers and Klipsch Cornwalls. I'm in audio heaven, even when I go to Kabuki's restaurant or Denny's.

A couple years ago, I bought a used Audio Research D100B. When I called the factory, the tech basically told me to buy the modern day equivalent for over $5000. No can do, GI. My son will be using my stereo gear when I'm gone, probably eat at Kabuki's.

 

[cubdog]

If you read what I said you'll notice the word MOST, not ALL.

I did read what you said and I stand by what I replied.

cubdog

 

[so_ein_pech]

Marketing guys love value added crap a solutions selling. If you are making a quality receiver, why not add a pair of speakers to the mix? Now instead of selling a product, you are selling a Total Audio Solution. It's a cheap way to add value to your system.

You don't even have to invest the resources it takes to make a decent pair of speakers. Customers that differentiate based on speaker quality can buy your stereo receiver anyway and go elsewhere for speakers. It opens up the market segment of potential customers that don't care too much about how things sound, but they want a simple solution (which is a big segment).

In the long-run maybe its not a great marketing scheme. Once you brand a cheap pair of speakers, you damage the company's reputation. On the other hand if company B captures that market segment instead of you, then they can sell more units and sell their receivers at a discount, putting you at a competitive disadvantage. Then you might not be around in the long-run.

Also, its probably easier to mass-produce high quality electronics than speakers.

 

[stereofanboy]

By "kabuki" I guess y'all are referring to Japanese?

My first stereo was the first major purchase of my life. I was a US Marine stationed in Okinawa. I took home $275 every two weeks and my stereo cost about $1800 all together- Sansui integrated amp (AU-717), Sansui tuner (TU-717) Aiwa cassette deck, Kenwood turntable and Sansui speakers. I really wanted a pair of JBL speakers, but they cost almost double the price of Sansui speakers.............

................It all came down to money- you could buy a stereo system tax free and ship it home for free. The American (Denny's since were calling speakers by restaurant names) speakers were known to be "better" but more costly....................

Kabuki is a nickname used for a specific type of speaker offered by the large Japanese stereo companies through the '70s with maybe a little late '60s and maybe even some early '80s thrown in. They had decorative wooden grills, and not enough airspace for the woofer. More drivers than seem necessary was another hallmark as was fairly high efficiency.

The earlier examples usually had thick walled cabinets, with nice walnut or teak veneer. The Sansuis (at least, maybe true of the others as well) had handcarved grills! These were beautiful speakers that wouldn't look out of place in a roomful of nice furniture. A good example of this would be Sansui's SP2500.

The later ones weren't cosmetically as nice. The design philosophy seemed about the same, but vinyl veneer was used instead of wood and they were getting lighter and lighter. The Sansui SP2500X is an example of the new direction.

I don't know who came up with the term Kabuki speakers, but I always thought the term referred to the traditional Japanese theatre and that it was chosen more for the sound of the word than any other reason. No one who hears it could possibly think it referred to Advents or JBLs. I've never heard of the restaurant until now, so that possibility didn't even occur to me.

Your first stereo is a good example of the point of the thread. You got a first class amp, and probably first class tape deck and turntable. These fed into a pair of Sansui speakers that probably weren't close to in the same class as the rest of the system.

Did the audio companies honestly think those speakers sounded good? Or was it some sort of nepotism deal, where the speaker design section of the company was peopled entirely by the slow cousins, idiot brothers-in-law and deaf grandfathers of the smart guys who worked in the amp design section?

Your mention of cost may provide a clue to why American servicemen bought what they did, but that doesn't explain the product design philosophy of Sansui, Pioneer, Kenwood and the others. For that matter, why were they cheaper? Fine hardwood veneers, handcarved grills, decent drivers, and complicated crossovers should still have been expensive even if the end result sounded like ass.

 

[restorer-john]

I think the money wasn't in the speakers for the Japanese, whereas the electronics were very profitable. By the time they'd shipped massive speaker packing boxes halfway around the world to sell at 2-4 hundred dollars a pair back in the day, there was no money in it.

I think they were also under pressure to give the retailers some high profit locally made speaker sales to get their margins back on track, due to the heavy local discounting of the high dollar value electronics in that local market.

I know a family that made many, many millions during the heyday of the 1970s and 1980s with audio racks for Sansui and all the big manufacturers. Yes, those glass doored racks. Their stuff was shipped to the entire world.

The Japanese could have made their own racks, but didn't do it very often- they used volume panel manufacturers.

They also used to ship the drivers direct to the US/UK etc and have the boxes made to suit the height they required for the various tiers of components they wanted to push, as such I don't think they really cared about the speakers- they knew the British had all the respect in the area of speaker design and the Americans would just buy the biggest, loudest they could afford to go with the most powerful amplifier they could also afford.

Efficiency was key and that meant not a lot of lossy networks to smooth out and fix the peaks and troughs.

I think the 1970s were just a bad time for speakers, with a few notable exceptions that are revered around here.

'Kabuki' speakers, as they've been misnamed (but a cute name), are just retro looking ornaments in my opinion.

 

[Duke58]

Kabuki is also the name of a Japanese tepanyaki restaurant, features the chef who makes a volcano out of an onion, throwing his cooking tools around like Bruce Lee and his nunchucks.

If I buy another pair of speakers, I'm gonna get me a pair of Tekton Pendragons.

Gonna watch me some college football tomorrow.

 

[malden]

We made some crappy speakers here as well in the 60's and 70's. I had a pair of Utah's that sounded like the enclosures were filled with beer and deep dish pizza...

Isn't "Kabuki" a Japanese art form? Using the term to reference low-end speakers that some businessmen dreamed up seems a little offensive...

 

[Pio1980]

I do a lot of buying and selling of stereo stuff and make certain to get some listening time with a piece to verify condition before offering it. I also rotate my keeper items every once in awhile, since I have more than is really necessary. As a result, my system changes fairly often.

A few days ago, I brought a Sansui AU-919 into the system that had been sitting idle for too long. The same day I pulled some Pioneer S-910s out to photograph them and get them ready for new owners. I wanted to keep the music going, so I hooked the AU to some Kabuki Kenwoods I had nearby. What a difference!

I've owned at least 12 pairs of what would be called Kabuki speakers, mostly Sansui, but also others including some that might be considered the best of the Kabuki breed.

There seems to be a huge disconnect between the sound quality of the gear and the sound quality of the speakers available from the same manufacturer. I know those companies had better speakers, like the aforementioned S-910. Judging from the quantities in the used market of today, they didn't seem to be as widely available as the really good amps and receivers. A lot of the very best Japanese speakers were apparently not even offered here.

Was the American stereo salesman supposed to convince a buyer that he needed the resolution of an AU-919 and then also sell him a pair of SP-9000X? Or were they just resigned to him selling their gear paired with JBLs?

The trend continued into the '80s, when they still offered some very fine gear, but their speakers took a step down even from the Kabuki lines. Anyone remember the three feet tall Pioneer and Kenwood speakers that weighed fifteen pounds?

It just doesn't seem to make sense.......

GIs bought lots them in overseas PXs and audio clubs and brought them back. Lotsa drivers and they looked Kool and metal guitar would just scream thru all that midrange centered response. They just looked like a lot for the money.
Me, I brought Rogers LS-3/5A over from the States to use in the smaller shared barracks rooms after selling my full-house 3 piece Dahlquist system, but then what do I know.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[so_ein_pech]

We made some crappy speakers here as well in the 60's and 70's. I had a pair of Utah's that sounded like the enclosures were filled with beer and deep dish pizza...

Isn't "Kabuki" a Japanese art form? Using the term to reference low-end speakers that some businessmen dreamed up seems a little offensive...

As I interpret it, the term "Kabuki" references the Japanese theater style known for its elaborate and heavily stylized makeup and costumes. Likewise kabuki speakers have elaborate layouts and designs, but in the end its mostly theater.