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KEF Reference 101 finish? Varnish? Oil?

dlmorley

New Member
Hello all
I just bought a pair of KEF reference 101. Lovely little speakers (I'm a producer, so mix and do mastering, so I am interested in these for that side of things) and the only thing is some staining on the cabinets. Looks worse in the pictures.. I'm not super bothered with the cosmetics, but I wondered what they would have originally used? If I sand lightly and add Danish oil, would that be similar to the original finish?
Cheers
David
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I can't tell for sure if they are oiled or have a film finish, but I suspect it's oiled.

White marks generally indicate that moisture is trapped beneath the finish, so try this first. Use a white soft cotton rag made into a ball. Pour a small amount of denatured alcohol into the ball. You want the ball wet, but not dripping wet. Using a pendulum motion go back and forth over the white marks. If it is trapped moisture that will draw it out.
 
Looks like they were used as plant stands.

F1nut will disagree, but you can simply do a light sanding and use Howard's Restor-A-Finish. I have done this successfully on a bunch of different speakers.

If you really want to refinish, which I what I would probably do (I like the finish work!), you can gently sand the whole cabinet. I say gently because it is really easy to sand through veneer. Or, hit it with some stripper, then sand. If you want to get really fancy you can bleach the cabinets with wood bleach or Barkeeper's Friend--they are both oxalic acid. Clean carefully, stain or dye in whatever color you like, then oil with either Tung oil, or boiled linseed oil. I forget what kind of tung oil I used on my Altec 19, but it is better (and more expensive) than the widely available Watco/Minwax, etc.

I can't really tell from the pics, but that wood looks to be fairly open grained, like oak. In that case, I like to apply stain with 180 or 220 grit sandpaper, then wipe off. This effectively fills the open grain with the right color.

If you decide to sand, do not use steel wool like one might on furniture.
 
It is likely some sort of a resin modified oil finish that forms a surface layer. Applying oil will improve it but not conceal the imperfections. It is always advisable to give the existing finish a thorough cleaning using both mineral spirits and detergent in separate operations and a very light sanding to eliminate raised grain prior to attempting a repair. Waxing afterwards will enhance the result.
Be aware that if you use Howard's the manufacturer advises not to use any other finish over top as adhesion will be compromised in future repairs or refinishing.
 
Lucky Pierre is correct, I will never recommend any Howard's products.

Oxalic acid or Bar Keepers Friend, which contains a weak amount of oxalic acid, is the wrong product for removing white marks. It will only remove black/dark marks caused by a chemical reaction with the tannins in wood when exposed to moisture for extended periods of time.
 
Oxalic acid or Bar Keepers Friend, which contains a weak amount of oxalic acid, is the wrong product for removing white marks. It will only remove black/dark marks caused by a chemical reaction with the tannins in wood when exposed to moisture for extended periods of time.

Thanks for the correction. I used BKF successfully to remove black stains from a pair of JBL cabinets. Didn't know about it not working on white stains.
 
Thanks for the correction. I used BKF successfully to remove black stains from a pair of JBL cabinets. Didn't know about it not working on white stains.
No problem :)

There's 3 kinds of bleach to use on wood, each with a different purpose.

Chlorine bleach is used for removing a wiping stain or dye color agent.

Oxalic acid is for removing black/dark stains caused by extended exposure to liquids.

Two part (A & B) bleach is used for removing or lightening the natural color of the wood.
 
I can't tell for sure if they are oiled or have a film finish, but I suspect it's oiled.

White marks generally indicate that moisture is trapped beneath the finish, so try this first. Use a white soft cotton rag made into a ball. Pour a small amount of denatured alcohol into the ball. You want the ball wet, but not dripping wet. Using a pendulum motion go back and forth over the white marks. If it is trapped moisture that will draw it out.
Would a good test to see if its just oil or if its a film finish be to put some oil on a spot and if it soaks in then its not a film finish, and if it dont soak in it has a film finish?
 
Would a good test to see if its just oil or if its a film finish be to put some oil on a spot and if it soaks in then its not a film finish, and if it dont soak in it has a film finish?
Not really. In person it should be obvious by just looking at the piece.
 
Thank you so much for all your responses. I didn't mention, but I am in Europe, so will have to look for products available here.. I will try the rag with alcohol to draw the moisture out carefully and see what happens. I may lightly sand the tops and refinish if time allows.
Thanks again David
 
No problem :)

There's 3 kinds of bleach to use on wood, each with a different purpose.

Chlorine bleach is used for removing a wiping stain or dye color agent.

Oxalic acid is for removing black/dark stains caused by extended exposure to liquids.

Two part (A & B) bleach is used for removing or lightening the natural color of the wood.
Cheers. I will try the cotton ball with alcohol. Are you also saying that I can use Chlorine Bleach for this type of stain? Thx!
 
Not really. In person it should be obvious by just looking at the piece.
I dont feel everyone can just look at it a wood finish and know what it is..you can maybe because you are experienced..im new to wood refinishing and after a crap ton of research ive done i might be able to tell by just looking, but most likely not and i would need to experiment and do tests on it..visually look to see if the wood pores are flooded around them and shallower, or completely filled..then i think i would see if linseed oil would absorb into the wood, then i would try to rub off the finish with denatured alcohol to see if its a shellac finish..and then move to lacquer thinner to rub and see if its lacquer finish...if solvents dont phase it it could be polyurethane...what else is there?.. wet sand and look at the color of the sanding water?..or just not give a crap what it is and sand it and put whatever finish you have laying around on it?
 
Cheers. I will try the cotton ball with alcohol. Are you also saying that I can use Chlorine Bleach for this type of stain? Thx!
Not a cotton ball. A cotton rag made into a ball.

No, chlorine bleach is only used to remove the applied color, be it a wiping stain or dye.
 
I dont feel everyone can just look at it a wood finish and know what it is..you can maybe because you are experienced..im new to wood refinishing and after a crap ton of research ive done i might be able to tell by just looking, but most likely not and i would need to experiment and do tests on it..visually look to see if the wood pores are flooded around them and shallower, or completely filled..then i think i would see if linseed oil would absorb into the wood, then i would try to rub off the finish with denatured alcohol to see if its a shellac finish..and then move to lacquer thinner to rub and see if its lacquer finish...if solvents dont phase it it could be polyurethane...what else is there?.. wet sand and look at the color of the sanding water?..or just not give a crap what it is and sand it and put whatever finish you have laying around on it?
Not all wood species have large pores.
No speaker company uses shellac.
That linseed oil notion...don't do that.
What else? Lacquer thinner won't bother catalyzed lacquer or conversion varnish.
Wet sand...water color. Never heard of that one.
Don't sand, use stripper.
 
Yes, avoid sanding. The cabinets are made of veneered chipboard and the veneer is not thick enough to withstand sanding.
The white marks, to me, indicate that the moisture that was left from whatever was put on there dissolved the stain originally applied, so it's not really a matter of removing white spots but "filling" the white spots with some tint of stain to bring them close to the surrounding tint.

As these are 40+ years old and obviously not well taken care of, I would expect lots of dirt to be present on the surfaces. This layer needs to be removed. I have found that 70-90% alcohol is mild enough to not damage the texture yet potent enough to clean. I would use a (small) fist sized cotton ball impregnated with alcohol to wipe the surface many times, at least while dark black/grey much is left on the cotton. Takes plenty of cotton to go through it.

As the surface cleans, you get a better view of the actual color / discoloration you have to work with. And you need to clean the surfaces before applying any kind of new finish.

I would also try paint stripper, starting with the bottom side. These days they are not really potent but do work well for removing varnish/oil/dirt. Goes much faster than alcohol, but I would also wipe it down with alcohol after treating it with paint stripper, to get it cleaner and remove remnants of stripper.

Using oxalic or even "peroxide" (H2O2) (dilluted) would uniformly remove the stain, be it added or native to the veneer. I have seen veneer and actual wood treated like that ending up almost vanilla white, like dry bones. Useful if you want to completely alter the tint, but I feel it's too far a journey to take.

Once the surface is clean you can choose an appropriate stain to match the unaffected area and I would use either a thick brush to "dry brush" the affected areas or rug and then wipe it. Repeatedly, in small tone "enhancements". Takes some time, but that's how it should be done. Experienced furniture restorers can achieve tone correction in 2-3 passes, us lesser folks have to put up with many more.

I have finished similar era loudspeakers from KEF (supposedly same kind of veneer/texture) both with bees wax and with matte urethane hardwood varnish. The latter, I used a sponge roller and took small amounts of varnish and many thin layers that I worked with the roller across the surface repeatedly, until the surface looked dry. Then let to cure for a couple of hours. Did 4-5 hands per day for two days. Very light sanding with 240 finishing paper between passes, just to rough up the surface, not take out the previous layer.

The end result with beeswax is nice and becomes nicer after a few weeks. Varnish looks equaly nice done this way because it doesn't get glossy and mirror finish like. They are both resistant to water stains, but the varnish treated surfaces are a bit more resistant. I had to redo my KEF 104 after 8-10 years - they suffered from stains caused by my lovely dog's saliva.
 
Not all wood species have large pores.
No speaker company uses shellac.
That linseed oil notion...don't do that.
What else? Lacquer thinner won't bother catalyzed lacquer or conversion varnish.
Wet sand...water color. Never heard of that one.
Don't sand, use stripper.
the question this post is about is, is it a oil finish or a varnish on his speakers?...are you going to try and help us determine that?..they are about 45 years old so you have to take in account that a previous owner could have applied other finishing product..is it best if we are in doubt just to go ahead and chemical strip them as the first step?
 
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