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KLH Model 23 or Acoustic Research ar5

Acoustic Research ar5 or KLH model 23

  • Total voters
    10
BigRiver

BigRiver

Member
I have the chance to refurbish these sets of speakers and would like to hear from anyone that has experience with one or ideally both.

They will be fed with both/either or, solid state (rebuilt Sansui au-999) and or tube (rebuilt Sherwood s5000).

I have been through the ar3 rebuild threads and have an idea as to how to approach the ar5's but I have no experience with the KLH.

Thanks!
 
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I am really familiar with the 5's. Hard to believe they sell for so little but I guess it is because many are not familiar with them. I know most KLH models but not the 23.
 
I didn't vote because I've never heard the AR5's. I have owned and spent significant time listening to AR2AX's and AR3A's. I have also worked on a few pairs of KLH Model 23's, including a pair in my collection awaiting recap. The biggest difference between the AR5's and the Model 23's is that the AR's are three way speakers and the 23's are two way speakers. Some prefer 3 way speakers and some prefer 2 way speakers. I have much more experience with 3 way speakers and am fond of many brands and models. I must say that I am also very fond of the sound of the KLH Model 23's. I can't put the difference into words but it's more a matter of 'different' than 'better' or 'worse'.

The KLH rebuild is very similar to the AR3 rebuild. Seal the woofer surrounds with the appropriate sealer, make sure the cabinets are well sealed, recap the crossovers. The Model 23 crossover consists of one 4uF capacitor that is easy to access with the woofer removed.

I think you'd probably be happy with either but I'd say the KLH Model 23's are probably more highly regarded than the AR5's.....

Good luck either way,
Joe
 
johnjhazel said:
I am really familiar with the 5's. Hard to believe they sell for so little but I guess it is because many are not familiar with them. I know most KLH models but not the 23.
Click to expand...
Thanks, yeah, not sure why they fetch so little in comparison, same tweets and mids, slightly smaller woofer. I am redoing the pots right now, caps next. With the caps what are your thoughts about having to match the uF exactly - the 4, 24, and 72. For example I am wondering if a 25 is fine for the 24 and a 75 for the 72?
 
BigRiver said:
Thanks, yeah, not sure why they fetch so little in comparison, same tweets and mids, slightly smaller woofer. I am redoing the pots right now, caps next. With the caps what are your thoughts about having to match the uF exactly - the 4, 24, and 72. For example I am wondering if a 25 is fine for the 24 and a 75 for the 72?
Click to expand...

Honestly, I am not qualified to answer that. Different values will change the sound. You should ask that over on the classic speaker pages if you don't get a response here.

EDIT- Response given so comment deleted.
 
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BigRiver said:
Thanks, yeah, not sure why they fetch so little in comparison, same tweets and mids, slightly smaller woofer. I am redoing the pots right now, caps next. With the caps what are your thoughts about having to match the uF exactly - the 4, 24, and 72. For example I am wondering if a 25 is fine for the 24 and a 75 for the 72?
Click to expand...

While a perfect match would be better theoretically most OEM capacitors had high tolerance, sometimes as high as 20%, so a 24uF capacitor would have been considered within spec if it measured between 19.2uF and 28.8uF. Assuming it is newer and higher tolerance, a 25uF would be well within spec. Even at 5% a 24uF could measure between 22.8uF and 25.2uF and be considered within spec.

So you'd probably be fine with the slightly different values.

Thanks,
Joe
 
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BigRiver said:
Thanks, yeah, not sure why they fetch so little in comparison, same tweets and mids, slightly smaller woofer. I am redoing the pots right now, caps next. With the caps what are your thoughts about having to match the uF exactly - the 4, 24, and 72. For example I am wondering if a 25 is fine for the 24 and a 75 for the 72?
Click to expand...
Curiosity question: Are caps of the original values not available or just not on hand ?
 
johnjhazel said:
Curiosity question: Are caps of the original values not available or just not on hand ?
Click to expand...
Here's the thing, and I go back and forth about this wondering if I made the right choice. I am changing the caps from the original electrolytic to film as recommended. After asking and getting 6 trillion contradicting answers about caps in regards to the expensive "boutique" caps vs a more standard offering (in this example Dayton film caps from P.E.) I decided to buy the standard which were the 3-5 times (easily) less expensive Daytons.

So with these I was able to get very close, with the more $$$$ ones I could have hit the nail on the head. In the end my reasoning was that even the less expensive (though not cheap) Dayton caps are more accurate than anything the original crossovers were built with, and thus are already operating above spec even if the old caps tested well. The speaker was built with and built it's rep with those old caps so I figured save the $$$ in case I had to have a tweeter or mid rebuilt. Plus, I decided to go with new pots for the crossovers instead or repairing the originals or using L-pads, and those are pretty costly.
 
BigRiver said:
Here's the thing, and I go back and forth about this wondering if I made the right choice. I am changing the caps from the original electrolytic to film as recommended. After asking and getting 6 trillion contradicting answers about caps in regards to the expensive "boutique" caps vs a more standard offering (in this example Dayton film caps from P.E.) I decided to buy the standard which were the 3-5 times (easily) less expensive Daytons.

So with these I was able to get very close, with the more $$$$ ones I could have hit the nail on the head. In the end my reasoning was that even the less expensive (though not cheap) Dayton caps are more accurate than anything the original crossovers were built with, and thus are already operating above spec even if the old caps tested well. The speaker was built with and built it's rep with those old caps so I figured save the $$$ in case I had to have a tweeter or mid rebuilt. Plus, I decided to go with new pots for the crossovers instead or repairing the originals or using L-pads, and those are pretty costly.
Click to expand...

I am glad that you are going with the pots. I have a pair of restored AR 3a's. They sound like crap. They have L-pads and the HiVi Q1R tweeters. It would not be so bad if the restorer had added the two 25 ohm resistors per speaker. One on the tweeter circuit and one on the midrange circuit. Without those resistors and due to the L-pads, the crossover frequencies have changed. And they sound like crap. I am sending them out to get the pots put back in and the HiVi tweeters replaced with AR 3a tweeters. I was in control of having my AR 6's restored. New caps, and rebuilt pots. They sound great. I can listen to them all day and night. I cannot do that with my 3a's the way that they are.
 
I can't vote either since I haven't heard the AR5, but I listen to a pair of KLH Twenty Threes almost every day, I love them almost as much as my KLH Model Fives (their 3-way siblings). They have real punchy, effortless bass and a nice smoothness in the rest of their ranges. For a 2-way, very hard to beat. And just a single cap in the crossover. Do that, clean the switches, dope the surrounds, and done.
 
johnjhazel said:
I am really familiar with the 5's. Hard to believe they sell for so little
Click to expand...
I suspect the price is low on them because as you say folks don't know them and since they are so similar to the AR-3a folks want the 3a. And this may have been true back then making them much less common.

10" instead of 12"
8Ω instead of 4Ω
standard box like the 2s and not the thick walled box of the 3

I enjoyed the 5s when I had them but they left my system 46 years ago so I can't say how I would like them today.
 
alteclipsch said:
I can't vote either since I haven't heard the AR5, but I listen to a pair of KLH Twenty Threes almost every day, I love them almost as much as my KLH Model Fives (their 3-way siblings). They have real punchy, effortless bass and a nice smoothness in the rest of their ranges. For a 2-way, very hard to beat. And just a single cap in the crossover. Do that, clean the switches, dope the surrounds, and done.
Click to expand...

I had a pair of KLH's in the very early 70's. They had a smoothness that was hard to beat. Mine had the 8" woofers and the tweeters that they used in many models. The simplicity of the crossover is pretty cool.
 
Blue Shadow said:
I suspect the price is low on them because as you say folks don't know them and since they are so similar to the AR-3a folks want the 3a. And this may have been true back then making them much less common.

10" instead of 12"
8Ω instead of 4Ω
standard box like the 2s and not the thick walled box of the 3

I enjoyed the 5s when I had them but they left my system 46 years ago so I can't say how I would like them today.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you are around my age. I'm 66.
 
alteclipsch said:
Hell I got you all beat at 71. My first KLH were Model Sixes, about 50 years ago. They were fabulous. The Twenty Threes are better.
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Yea ! Good for you ! We'll see if I make it another 5 years. When I was a kid, it seemed everyone's Father either had a HIFi or HiFi Stereo. Some had Heathkits that they assembled themselves. Now, out of all my friends that I can see, no one has what I would call a stereo system. If I want to see components other than my own, I have to go to an audio store. I have to wonder if our generation is the last of the audiophiles.
 
johnjhazel said:
Yea ! Good for you ! We'll see if I make it another 5 years. When I was a kid, it seemed everyone's Father either had a HIFi or HiFi Stereo. Some had Heathkits that they assembled themselves. Now, out of all my friends that I can see, no one has what I would call a stereo system. If I want to see components other than my own, I have to go to an audio store. I have to wonder if our generation is the last of the audiophiles.
Click to expand...
I don't think so, I'm 46 and I know of quite a few others here in New Mexico that are around my age and quite a bit younger that are really in to it -- going to the garage sales, flea markets, (covid has kinda killed some of this for now) looking for cool stuff, most of us are pretty in to older gear to. Both of my integrated amps and my tuners are older than I am and I love them.

I just rebuilt one of the ar5 crossovers tonight, pots and caps and it really made a HUGE difference, night and day. Though I have to say the caps I took out measured really good, like a couple were dead on and as far as I can tell these speakers are likely from 1969. I have to say I am really happy with the results so far, cabinets have been sanded a bit and I'll refinish after they are built out. I kept the original veneer even though there are some pretty good marks in them. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

There's a guy on that auction site that has manufactured new pots for a lot of speakers and the ones he has for the ar's are great. They are way bigger than the originals which help with heat and they are sealed so the rock wool and or fiberglass won't corrode them.
 
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