Anyone have experience using ALK’s Extreme slope Network on Stock Klipschorns? Is it worth the cost or just stick with AA xo’s with new caps. Basically is there any sound improvement regardless of your amp or room?
Klipschorn Crossover Question
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Coytee
Super Member
I had a pair and I think it depends... (you knew I'd say that, didn't you?)
My take on it is, it depends on how you listen. If you are one of those who listen at low levels, "don't want to wake the kids (or the dead)" then stock (depending on what you have, mine had AA's).
If you are one of those rockers who crank things up to wake the dead then the steeper slopes might be better.
I'm in the latter camp, work around the house & will have things on stupid loud while I'm listening to the system downstairs (system is now moved downstairs so this is referenced to when I had Khorns)
Also... I was part of doing a side by side listening experiment once, while at the factory in Hope. What we (I) learned there was a steeper slope "removed a veil" from the sound. It wasn't strong enough where I felt I could walk into the room blind and say "HA, you are using (insert crossover style) on your Khorns" Maybe someone else could, but not me.
On a side by side? I could probably pick the steeper slope crossovers 9 out of 10 times. It was distinctly more clear.
Now for the "bad" part... and this is only my opinion.
I discovered my Khorns sounded DISTINCTLY better while I was standing at the bottom of my stairs, 30' away (I measured)
Long story short, and I don't say this as fact, but my presumptions & conclusions... anyway, long story short, I think the steep slope crossovers took more "time" (therefore distance) before the drivers could merge into a single sound bubble.
They sounded STUPENDOUS when standing 30' away. They sounded good while in the room but I think I was able to discern some separation of the drivers that disappeared at 30'
When I sold the Khorns, swapped them out for the 2-way Jubilee's, I soon went to this 30' spot because I wanted to see how much better the Jubilee would sound...
Interestingly, it didn't happen and I was perplexed.
What I have since figured out is, since the Jubilee is a 2-way speaker (also signal aligned in the active) the bubble of sound gel's around 10 feet away verses 30'. So I'm now getting that stupendous sound while being IN the room with the speaker rather than having it be 30' away.
Losing a crossover was probably a more significant upgrade to the sound than the extreme slope crossovers.
Hope this helps a bit.
My take on it is, it depends on how you listen. If you are one of those who listen at low levels, "don't want to wake the kids (or the dead)" then stock (depending on what you have, mine had AA's).
If you are one of those rockers who crank things up to wake the dead then the steeper slopes might be better.
I'm in the latter camp, work around the house & will have things on stupid loud while I'm listening to the system downstairs (system is now moved downstairs so this is referenced to when I had Khorns)
Also... I was part of doing a side by side listening experiment once, while at the factory in Hope. What we (I) learned there was a steeper slope "removed a veil" from the sound. It wasn't strong enough where I felt I could walk into the room blind and say "HA, you are using (insert crossover style) on your Khorns" Maybe someone else could, but not me.
On a side by side? I could probably pick the steeper slope crossovers 9 out of 10 times. It was distinctly more clear.
Now for the "bad" part... and this is only my opinion.
I discovered my Khorns sounded DISTINCTLY better while I was standing at the bottom of my stairs, 30' away (I measured)
Long story short, and I don't say this as fact, but my presumptions & conclusions... anyway, long story short, I think the steep slope crossovers took more "time" (therefore distance) before the drivers could merge into a single sound bubble.
They sounded STUPENDOUS when standing 30' away. They sounded good while in the room but I think I was able to discern some separation of the drivers that disappeared at 30'
When I sold the Khorns, swapped them out for the 2-way Jubilee's, I soon went to this 30' spot because I wanted to see how much better the Jubilee would sound...
Interestingly, it didn't happen and I was perplexed.
What I have since figured out is, since the Jubilee is a 2-way speaker (also signal aligned in the active) the bubble of sound gel's around 10 feet away verses 30'. So I'm now getting that stupendous sound while being IN the room with the speaker rather than having it be 30' away.
Losing a crossover was probably a more significant upgrade to the sound than the extreme slope crossovers.
Hope this helps a bit.
Thanks for the explanation and yes, it does help a great deal. Exactly what I was looking for, experience! Now I am using the AA crites crossover. Although it sound good, I think it can sound better.
My average listening level at 10-12' is between 75-84db or thereabouts depending. Occasionally I will crank it up to 100db. Some albums just don't sound right unless it's loud.
Interestingly enough when I move towards the back of the house, also roughly 30' away, even then the sound is fantastic at that distance. Including inside another room with door open. I can still hear the music well and fully. I just thought that was the way of Klipschorn. Also My ceiling is quite high so the sound really travels.
Are the crossovers in your Jubilee's standard Klipsch or the ALK steep slope?
My average listening level at 10-12' is between 75-84db or thereabouts depending. Occasionally I will crank it up to 100db. Some albums just don't sound right unless it's loud.
Interestingly enough when I move towards the back of the house, also roughly 30' away, even then the sound is fantastic at that distance. Including inside another room with door open. I can still hear the music well and fully. I just thought that was the way of Klipschorn. Also My ceiling is quite high so the sound really travels.
Are the crossovers in your Jubilee's standard Klipsch or the ALK steep slope?
The Khorns are also extremely sensitive to speaker cables . I've found they sound best with solid core. I'm using Audio Quest Bedrocks. Cables like Monster Z 3s are not a good match. Too bright and the balance is just off.
My Khorns are AA fully upgraded , including a ten gauge inductor for the bass. Lots and lots of tweaking and modding and most important driver level matching . Almost 3 years worth to get them to where they are. My buddy was over last week and considers them world class. Learning from most others who's experiences with them tells me, I'm also blessed with a room very "bass friendly". My AR 9s bass is no match for these horn loaded 15''s. and that's saying alot.
Older stock Klipsches require a lot of refinement and attention to to get them to become a fine speaker. It can be done.
My Khorns are AA fully upgraded , including a ten gauge inductor for the bass. Lots and lots of tweaking and modding and most important driver level matching . Almost 3 years worth to get them to where they are. My buddy was over last week and considers them world class. Learning from most others who's experiences with them tells me, I'm also blessed with a room very "bass friendly". My AR 9s bass is no match for these horn loaded 15''s. and that's saying alot.
Older stock Klipsches require a lot of refinement and attention to to get them to become a fine speaker. It can be done.
Coytee
Super Member
Regarding your first comment... (and I'm not terribly technical so hopefully you'll already know this)
Any room is going to have some form is 'issues', especially if it's a non-treated room. My upstairs room accentuated around the 90Hz mark and you could just hear & feel it.... it became annoying.
Walk to the next room (open floor plan so had no walls between the rooms) and suddenly the sound vastly improved.
Without knowing all (any?) of the details, the 'current' room had the excited bass reponse. As you walked into the next room, you might have had an excited bass response (maybe different frequency?) but, because it was another room and further away, it was seriously reduced such that it might become a moot concern.
All my life, I noticed that the speakers always sounded better while I was in another room.... sounded so clean, like the band was in the speaker room. Yet, go into the speaker room and you heard a LOT more 'blubber' or interference.
Always amazed me.
Anyway, as a side note, I have always (and I mean always) used pedestrian underground low voltage wire (12-g) that you can buy at Home Depot or Lowes. I made my own interconnects (Mogami Neglex w/Neutrik connectors)
To answer your Jubilee question, I use an active crossover with the 'standard' Klipsch parameters installed on it. By going active, you can align the two horns (one issue that you won't be able to do with your passive alone)
So that feature helps launch the sound in a more coherent way. Losing the midrange/tweeter crossover point helps the sound gel faster as well since you only have two sources to merge, not three.
Very good information from you guys.
Just to clarify, I am not unhappy with my speakers or the sound I am getting, although I’m sure it can be better with some tweaks. I was just wondering if experimenting with XO’s would make that much difference in sound regardless of room and amp etc.. The room treatment is still a work in progress. And it may be some time until I’m finally satisfied.
tough decision. Not sure if I want to spend $1500.00 on the ALK steep slope crossovers just to find out they are not that much better or that they will not make an earth shattering difference which is what I would expect.So are your two way jubilee's just as room filling sound as the Khorns ? Not 30' feet away, just in your immediate listening area? My room is also split but main living room is roughly 15'x23' with Very high ceiling, 14.5' at the apex.
EDIT: never mind: Just saw some photos of those beautiful Jubilee Klipsch...Wow!
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Coytee
Super Member
If I may be indelicate.... no, I'll word it differently.
Question: When PWK designed his first Khorn, how many years of experience did he have? (answer: zero as best I know)
Question II: When PWK designed the Jubilee, how many years of experience did he have? (50)
I'm guessing he learned a thing or two during that 50 years.
That said, having heard them side by side (and this is the indelicate part, I'm not trying to be ugly or mean to anyone)....
The Jubilee (in my opinion of course although I can probably list many others who might agree).... but, the Jubilee absolutely stomps on the Khorn.
They are MORE room filling (better / more even coverage), they will play much louder if you want them to AND, they will be MUCH cleaner while doing it (thanks to the 2" throat horn on top)
I first heard Khorns in 1979. I lusted for a pair ever since. I finally got a pair around 2003/4 (forget to be honest) Replaced them with the Jubilee's around 2007 and have not missed the Khorns for a moment since.
Question: When PWK designed his first Khorn, how many years of experience did he have? (answer: zero as best I know)
Question II: When PWK designed the Jubilee, how many years of experience did he have? (50)
I'm guessing he learned a thing or two during that 50 years.
That said, having heard them side by side (and this is the indelicate part, I'm not trying to be ugly or mean to anyone)....
The Jubilee (in my opinion of course although I can probably list many others who might agree).... but, the Jubilee absolutely stomps on the Khorn.
They are MORE room filling (better / more even coverage), they will play much louder if you want them to AND, they will be MUCH cleaner while doing it (thanks to the 2" throat horn on top)
I first heard Khorns in 1979. I lusted for a pair ever since. I finally got a pair around 2003/4 (forget to be honest) Replaced them with the Jubilee's around 2007 and have not missed the Khorns for a moment since.
BillWojo
Addicted Member
I found that when I went from my Heresy's, a 3 way to my Altec's, a 2 way that the upper end was just so much smoother without the 2nd transition in there. I can't imagine the total night mare of crossing over 4 or 5 way speakers.
I always thought my Heresy's were really good until I listened to a set of Altec Model 14's that my buddy has. I immediately started looking for 2 way Altec's. In my opinion, the least number of crossover points involved, the better.
BillWojo
I always thought my Heresy's were really good until I listened to a set of Altec Model 14's that my buddy has. I immediately started looking for 2 way Altec's. In my opinion, the least number of crossover points involved, the better.
BillWojo
I will take your word for it. I am not quite in your league yet, little experience and only owning the Khorns for one year. I love my Khorns but I have to admit after reading up on the Jubilee's, I am a tad bit envious. BTW, what is driving those Jubilee's of yours?
Coytee
Super Member
Heh... don't ostracize me....
I have a Crown K2 dedicated to each speaker.
I have used a Peach tube preamp as my primary for 10 years however, just about a week ago, yanked it out in lieu of my Lexicon.
I have (philosophical) issues with both of them in that they both have RCA outputs and my active crossover requires XLR inputs.
I'd like to replace them for a unit with XLR outputs.
Over my time though, I have used:
McIntosh MC-30's
McIntosh MC-2102
Quad II
Viva 300B SET
Transcendent SE-OTL
Wright 2A3 SET
dbx BX-1
dbx BX-3 (still have this one)
and currently, using the dedicated K2's
I have a Crown K2 dedicated to each speaker.
I have used a Peach tube preamp as my primary for 10 years however, just about a week ago, yanked it out in lieu of my Lexicon.
I have (philosophical) issues with both of them in that they both have RCA outputs and my active crossover requires XLR inputs.
I'd like to replace them for a unit with XLR outputs.
Over my time though, I have used:
McIntosh MC-30's
McIntosh MC-2102
Quad II
Viva 300B SET
Transcendent SE-OTL
Wright 2A3 SET
dbx BX-1
dbx BX-3 (still have this one)
and currently, using the dedicated K2's
I’m not one to ostracize or criticize anyone. I’m learning still, even at my old age. I am amazed at the assortment of equipment being used by “audiophiles” and just your average music afficianodos like myself with Klipsch and other speakers. Each to their own liking, everyones is different and that’s what make this “hobby” interesting, not to mention expensive.
But thanks for your input. Now I will be on the look out for a pair of Jubilee’s. But in the meantime, I will thoroughly enjoy my Khorns and maybe splurge just a little on some upgrades.
But thanks for your input. Now I will be on the look out for a pair of Jubilee’s. But in the meantime, I will thoroughly enjoy my Khorns and maybe splurge just a little on some upgrades.
Coytee
Super Member
Unless it was your day to buy a lottery ticket, you likely won't find a pair of Jubilee's as you look out for a pair.
Although it has happened, (someone selling a pair) it's only been a couple times and then, you have the issue of logistics....where are they located verses where do you live.
The ostracize comment was a bit tongue in cheek since there are those who view Crown amps....I think the word I once read was "kludge amps" or something like that.... then there is the "PA amp"...
When in fact, they sound quite nice. (I'm only speaking of the K2 since those are the only ones I am familiar with)
Although it has happened, (someone selling a pair) it's only been a couple times and then, you have the issue of logistics....where are they located verses where do you live.
The ostracize comment was a bit tongue in cheek since there are those who view Crown amps....I think the word I once read was "kludge amps" or something like that.... then there is the "PA amp"...
When in fact, they sound quite nice. (I'm only speaking of the K2 since those are the only ones I am familiar with)