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KT88 Power tube arc/blow?

HiFiGuy528

Super Member
Please help me understand more about tubes. My McIntosh amp uses KT88/6550 power tubes. I've had a KT88 blow and it took out some part on the main board. My question was will that happen during playback (tubes warmed up) or does it normally go at start-up only?
 
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Cold Start

Predominantly at startup has been my experience. Mostly arcing near the base. Pretty until you realize that a tube just died and possibly took something else out as well.
 
Most power tubes arcs I've seen have been the result of switching on a pre into a warmed up tube amp.
 
Most power tubes arcs I've seen...

...or from "short cycling" a power amp. Never switch on a hot amp just after you've turned it off. I don't care if you are rolling tubes. Let the thing cool off completely before you turn it back on again. Hot tubes plus startup voltage surges are a sure recipe for fatal tube arcing.

Other known tube killers are power supply capacitor "upgrades". People love to increase their supply capacitors when they recap an amp, but most don't realize this puts the tubes (rectifier and power) at risk. Keep the first cap after a tube rectifier well under that rectifiers max capacitance rating (typically 47 uF for something like a 5AR4, and even less for many others). If you have solid state rectifiers on an amp with pentode or beam tube finals, make sure there is some resistance (100~1000 ohms) between the screens and the voltage supply. It acts as a ballast and prevents arc creating swings during startup.
 
"...or from "short cycling" a power amp. Never switch on a hot amp just after you've turned it off. I don't care if you are rolling tubes. Let the thing cool off completely before you turn it back on again. Hot tubes plus startup voltage surges are a sure recipe for fatal tube arcing".

I learned that this morning. I was able to turn OFF the amp just before any known damage. Do you think it already damaged something? Should I not use those tubes?
 
There are too many different failure modes to attempt to generalize. Each failure mode may or may not take other components out when it happens. This depends on the failure mode _and_ the particularly circuit topology the tube is being used in.

By failure mode, an example might be: Internal arcing means that 2 parts of the tube have high voltage felt across them. If one part fails mechanically and the parts get too close to each other, then you'll be seeing sparking/arcing and likely a number of small flakes of metal being thrown off. You can inspect the tube and see them rolling around.

Another failure mode is where the filament wires or the support fails and they fall onto other parts of the tube containing high power. Given that these 2 parts of the tube are operated off of separate circuits in many power amps, the chances for adjacent component failure can be high, again, depending on how the circuits are wired.

So, to the question of whether it will fail more at startup or during normal operation after warming up, the proper answer is: It depends on the failure mode.

In the case of the more contemporary Mac tube amps, though, most all of the power supplied to the tube's various circuits are all regulated if not computer controlled. This implies that you cannot really predict the exact failed components until a tube fails.

For this reason, I like to have a 'panic' switch set up for my old tube gear where I quickly ensure that the all AC power can be removed in a hurry. It works, too, for old SS gear, too.

Cheers,

David
 
I now have my hand on the power switch of the amp for about 3 min. during start up. I don't know if it will pop during normal playback. Yes I use all McIntosh amps.
 
"...or from "short cycling" a power amp.

I learned that this morning. I was able to turn OFF the amp just before any known damage. Do you think it already damaged something? Should I not use those tubes?

If you didn't see any sparking or other kind of light show, it's fine. If the amp still plays and sounds good, it's fine. Vacuum tubes are generally very sturdy electrically, but delicate mechanically. Solid state transistors are the opposite (mechanically solid, but electrically sensitive).
 
....Vacuum tubes are generally very sturdy electrically, but delicate mechanically. Solid state transistors are the opposite (mechanically solid, but electrically sensitive).

Dang, should have waited for your post - much better said.

Cheers,

David
 
Hot switching depends on the circuit / stability too. Sometimes you can find hot switching data for different tubes, but not always.
 
Can a gassy tube also cause the internal arcing? Or does that happen when they've been used too many hours? I had what I can only describe as a "lightning storm" at the base of my KT88, and I couldn't reach the power switch in time. This is the second time it's happened (but the first time in the V1 position, last time it was V4 I believe) First time it just took out some resistors, and I expect the same damage this time. I'm using old stock tubes - I snagged 40 Teslovak KT88's for $25 a few years back. This tube has been part of a quad that I've been running five or six years. It failed about 15 minutes after startup. I was in the kitchen and heard a lot of static in the music, and rushed into the living room but I didn't make it to the power switch in time, and the amp let out some of the magic smoke.

Charles.
 
Can a gassy tube also cause the internal arcing? Or does that happen when they've been used too many hours? I had what I can only describe as a "lightning storm" at the base of my KT88, and I couldn't reach the power switch in time. This is the second time it's happened (but the first time in the V1 position, last time it was V4 I believe) First time it just took out some resistors, and I expect the same damage this time. I'm using old stock tubes - I snagged 40 Teslovak KT88's for $25 a few years back. This tube has been part of a quad that I've been running five or six years. It failed about 15 minutes after startup. I was in the kitchen and heard a lot of static in the music, and rushed into the living room but I didn't make it to the power switch in time, and the amp let out some of the magic smoke.

Charles.
Sounds like you may have some instability, like parasitic oscillation going on in your amp. Have checked any sites that has threads on your amp? Maybe, there is a fix?
 
This is not a common issue with the amp. There IS an issue with the Triode/UL mode switches that will blow a tube (dirty contacts don't switch mode fully), but that generally only presents itself after actually using the switch.


This has only happened twice in the 16 years I've owned the amp, and only with these Teslovak tubes, which is why I'm thinking it's the tubes. Not only that, some in the bunch were definitely gassy when I got them. They glowed differently than the others with bias current never stabilized (just kept increasing regardless of trimpot adjustment). I trashed those. That said, while I have the unit opened I'll check the switch.

Oh I also don't really know how long I'm supposed to go before changing my tubes for new ones. Right now, as long as the tubes bias correctly I keep running them. (I can individually bias each tube).

Thoughts?

Charlie.
 
Please help me understand more about tubes. My McIntosh amp uses KT88/6550 power tubes. I've had a KT88 blow and it took out some part on the main board. My question was will that happen during playback (tubes warmed up) or does it normally go at start-up only?
as others have noted, mostly during start up but can also happen while in use. Part of this has be expected with owning tube gear. You did not mention what brand of tube blew, or which MAC amp you are using but the Russian or NOS US tubes seem to be more robust than the Chinese KT88s or 6550s. I have several pairs of MC60s which see regular use, and I have the Tungsol re-issue 6550s in them. Pretty darn trouble free.
 
Can a gassy tube also cause the internal arcing? Or does that happen when they've been used too many hours? I had what I can only describe as a "lightning storm" at the base of my KT88, and I couldn't reach the power switch in time. This is the second time it's happened (but the first time in the V1 position, last time it was V4 I believe) First time it just took out some resistors, and I expect the same damage this time. I'm using old stock tubes - I snagged 40 Teslovak KT88's for $25 a few years back. This tube has been part of a quad that I've been running five or six years. It failed about 15 minutes after startup. I was in the kitchen and heard a lot of static in the music, and rushed into the living room but I didn't make it to the power switch in time, and the amp let out some of the magic smoke.

Charles.
Dose the amp have bias adjustments? What does the manufacturer recommend? How old is the amp? May need new electrolytic capacitors.

Perhaps should have a tech look at the amp.
 
Dose the amp have bias adjustments? What does the manufacturer recommend? How old is the amp? May need new electrolytic capacitors.

Perhaps should have a tech look at the amp.
The amp has bias adjustments for each power tube. Recommended bias voltage is pretty high (.85V I believe), but I bias down to .55V to prolong tube life. (yes it's a voltage reading on this amp, not amperage).

I've replaced all the electrolytics in the amp except for the four large 400V caps between the transformers

Charles.
 
These are the most important ones, for stable, clean power supply.

How old is the unit?

I've had it for 16 years. Bought it in 2007. Recapped after the first tube went, just because I was already in there. Yaqin MC-100B.

If I could find a tech that would do a good job and not steal my gear I'd be happy. Lost a CT-F1250 with custom alps heads to a sheister. The tech before him died and I had to fight his widow to get my gear back. The one before him replaced a whole tuner board with a known bad board, which I had supplied him with my receiver in case he needed extra parts to fix mine. Didn't follow instructions at all. That's why I've learned to do a lot of it myself. Nobody reputable in the area.

Charles.
 
Yeah, it's getting to the point where one has to do these maintenance jobs. Depending on how hard and hot the amp is run, and how good those capacitors are --- 15-25 years seems to be typical lifespan. It's really the heat that kills electrolytic caps.
 
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