Law of Diminishing Returns Applied to Audio Equipment
- Thread starter HamDog
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HamDog
AudioGuy
While we're talking about soundcards, how about the diminishing returns of recording in 24 bit 96khz (digitizing albums) in FLAC format? The extra harddrive space required for the harddrive worth it???? :yes: Ok, so I'm getting picky here. I do record in 24/96 because harddrive space is so cheap these days.
And what about phono pre-amps? I think this is also one area of major diminishing returns!
And what about phono pre-amps? I think this is also one area of major diminishing returns!
I have maybe a $20k system (that I didn't pay that for...) and honestly the only thing where I felt diminishing returns was with my power amp. But while it didn't give me a huge sonic leap (though it did give improvement), it gave me the ability to drive anything with very little power compression and without the fear that my Quads were going to blow it up if they decided to bring a near-short to their inputs, which they will do to protect themselves. Preamp, turntable(s), cartridges, speakers- everything offered a substantial leap in sound quality over the less costly stuff it replaced. The biggest improvement was in my sources, both CD/SACD and turntable. My two CD players and VPI are substantially better than what I had before and not a subtle change.
voltcontrol
Fizheuer Zieheuer
FLAC versus what?
HamDog
AudioGuy
FLAC versus what?
While going through the trouble of digitizing and cleaning up vinyl, I actually make two digital files. A 24/96 FLAC for my home theater PC, and a 256 bit MP3 to load on my Android phone to play in the car. The FLAC is 20x larger! Thank god for the cheap external terrabyte drives!
JohnVF, I've been extremely hesitant on replacing my CD/DVD player (also SACD/DVD-A). I just hate to make the $1,000+ expenditure because I think the improvements will be marginal over my old and cheap Pioneer Elite unit. I need a good center channel speaker first. Then I'll save up for a higher end cd/dvd and hope the results are higher than I expect.
jeremyjustic
Analog
I just read a review of $25,000 speaker cables, unbelievable.
I think if you are really in a position to buy $25,000 spealer cables there is no law of diminishing returns. you simply have so much money that you wouldnt let a silly thing like logic spoil your fun
I think if you are really in a position to buy $25,000 spealer cables there is no law of diminishing returns. you simply have so much money that you wouldnt let a silly thing like logic spoil your fun
HamDog
AudioGuy
Yup, I agree that cables definitely have the highest rate of diminishing returns. Right along with them, the AC power cords that run into the thousands!
The problem may be in my hearing. As the old saying goes, I can't hear a rat piss on a piece of cotton from 20 feet away.
HamDog
AudioGuy
24/96 files are fairly large, but hard drive space is dirt cheap nowadays. I stick to regular 16/44 flacs though
I thought that someday I may be able to upgrade to equipment where I could actually hear the difference. And I didn't wanna go through all the trouble of re-digitizing all my albums again!
Junknewbian
Well-Known Member
I always thought "a cd player is a cd player", but I just found a Nakamich MB-1 and it sounds better than the Yamaha, Sony, and Technics players that came before. I don't understand how the difference is made. Speakers, amps, cartridges and turntables all explain themselves to me, about how one could be better than the other. But digital playback, with the same source, confuses me.
It's only diitalup to the input of the DAC. From the DAC to the output jacks, it's all analog and they can do whatever they want to the signal.
Brett a
~◦●○o0o○●◦~
I'm not sure the concept of diminishing returns is very important to me.
There will always be improvements out ahead. At this point, the only way I'm liely to upgrade would be by listening in-home before I pay (yes, my local shop has this policy)
The only important question I'd need to answer is how much do I have to budget before I bother talking to my shop.
Right now, I'd really like better speakers, but until I can be serious about spending $3,000+, I'm not engaging anyone about a sale.
As for the question of what is mid-fi and entry-level. That's quite subjective I think. Personally, I think of my $8k system as mid-fi. But I also know that no matter what I have spent or will spend in the future, I'll always be standing at the threshold of entry level.
There will always be improvements out ahead. At this point, the only way I'm liely to upgrade would be by listening in-home before I pay (yes, my local shop has this policy)
The only important question I'd need to answer is how much do I have to budget before I bother talking to my shop.
Right now, I'd really like better speakers, but until I can be serious about spending $3,000+, I'm not engaging anyone about a sale.
As for the question of what is mid-fi and entry-level. That's quite subjective I think. Personally, I think of my $8k system as mid-fi. But I also know that no matter what I have spent or will spend in the future, I'll always be standing at the threshold of entry level.
Quint
Super Member
I think diminishing returns sets in pretty early (relatively speaking, of course). The most lopsided case I ever experienced was a 200k system consisting of Avalon speakers, Ayre electronics, and Nordost cables/power conditioning getting embarrassed by a 20k rig comprised of largely modded gear. I laughed out loud when I heard the difference—much to the chagrin and distress of the Avalon/Ayre owner.
If you choose your gear wisely, you can compete with stuff a LOT more expensive.
If you choose your gear wisely, you can compete with stuff a LOT more expensive.
shelly_d
Not An Audiophool
Putting aside the sometimes contentious issue of power cords, speaker cables, interconnects etc, the place I think diminishing returns shows up first is in the power amp or power amp section of receiver or integrated amp. Consider this: most speakers will be the highest distortion device in the reproduction chain, typically around 4% ~ 6%. There may be some that show less distortion so lets assume we have a 2% distortion speaker system. Consider the amp that drives that speaker. It will have a power rating and distortion rating and noise floor. Say, 0.1% distortion at 50 watts output with noise -90dB below 1 watt. Not great specs but certainly a respectable amp. Now you upgrade. Go to 100 watts, 0.05% distortion and noise at -100dB below 1 watt. You have doubled your power, halved the distortion and cut the volume of the noise in half. Lets say you have gotten a bargain and the new one cost you 1.5 times what the 50 watt amp cost you. Seems great right, only what are the audible effects of all this super upgrading. Distortion: The speakers are still producing 2% distortion, so a drop in the amps distortion from .1% to .05% is not going to be audible. Just gets lost in the speaker's distortion. Drop in noise floor: At -90 dB the noise is 1/512th as loud as the music at 1 watt. Virtually inaudible to most of us. The -100dB spec drops that volume of that noise by half, it is true, but again, if -90 was inaudible, then -100 dB is also inaudible, so again no really audible improvement. Now we come to power. You've doubled your output power. Does that mean you have doubled your volume (assuming your speakers are capable of that of course)? No it does not. To double the volume of a sound, the power must increase by 10 dB or 10 times the power. At twice the power you get a 3 dB increase in volume, a small audible increase.
So the summary here is the law of diminishing returns is with us with a vengeance in the field of power amps. And, unlike the more doubtful issues of audiophile power cords and wall sockets, this is very real with us every time we purchase an amp with distortion that is less then 10% of our speaker's distortion rating and noise less then audible at out listening level.
Shelly_D
So the summary here is the law of diminishing returns is with us with a vengeance in the field of power amps. And, unlike the more doubtful issues of audiophile power cords and wall sockets, this is very real with us every time we purchase an amp with distortion that is less then 10% of our speaker's distortion rating and noise less then audible at out listening level.
Shelly_D
anthony28
Active Member
These big ticket items I would assume are made by smaller companies and are probably hand made and not "mass produced" by machines or thousands of workers and would therefor fall under the "Boutique" catergory....
Because of this, buyers would pay lots to have that feeling of owning something very special or limited and pridefully hand crafted and the sellers know this!
I think most of the price comes from the attention to detail found in the craftsmanship and unique quality of the components used throughout these hi-end products. These companies are able to sink more time and more money into their products because of less overhead.
Sorry to talk guitars...but just look at U.S. Fender and U.S. Gibson guitar companies for example...Both have a few hanfuls of actual master builders each and bump their prices up because of the attention to detail and the quality of components in their finished product. They are also mostly limited in production.
Now look at Epiphone guitars which is owned by Gibson.....They are made over seas in factories with hundreds if not thousands of worker bees and are pumped out by the thousands daily! Though owned by gibson, they are just not the same "quality build" to the hand and eye.
And as far as sound goes.......well thats really up to the buyers ears!
I think sometimes the hefty price tags can cause the "placebo effect" of superb sound to happen when listening to these pieces of artwork! That's just my opinion
Because of this, buyers would pay lots to have that feeling of owning something very special or limited and pridefully hand crafted and the sellers know this!
I think most of the price comes from the attention to detail found in the craftsmanship and unique quality of the components used throughout these hi-end products. These companies are able to sink more time and more money into their products because of less overhead.
Sorry to talk guitars...but just look at U.S. Fender and U.S. Gibson guitar companies for example...Both have a few hanfuls of actual master builders each and bump their prices up because of the attention to detail and the quality of components in their finished product. They are also mostly limited in production.
Now look at Epiphone guitars which is owned by Gibson.....They are made over seas in factories with hundreds if not thousands of worker bees and are pumped out by the thousands daily! Though owned by gibson, they are just not the same "quality build" to the hand and eye.
And as far as sound goes.......well thats really up to the buyers ears!
I think sometimes the hefty price tags can cause the "placebo effect" of superb sound to happen when listening to these pieces of artwork! That's just my opinion
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shelly_d
Not An Audiophool
It shouldn't be contentious to say that all amps sound alike.
Below certain distortion ratings, with inaudible noise floors and at equal listening levels, and transient responses that are faster then our ears can track I would agree.
I would point out however, that there are many amps out there that are considered very high quality amps, but have significant amounts of harmonic distortion (usually 2nd order) that are considered very "musical". I would contend that those do sound different. If you like them, enjoy. I will acknowledge that they do sound different and accept that some like them. I think I will stick to the low distortion side of the street.
Shelly_D
I should add that though I mentioned diminishing returns with my amp, especially considering the price difference between it and what it replaced- there was, indeed, a noticeable difference. The way it handled low level detail and how notes trail off (especially notable was how reverb came across) was quite different between it, and other amps I have laying around. It wasn't a huge difference- but at some level, what was once not a big deal, becomes a big deal. What constituted small differences to me before, are now 'big' differences in that once you hear something and get that sound stuck in your head, its hard to go back to something that doesn't have that little extra bit of resolution. It gets very addictive. I think that is where people start getting into some of the crazy priced power cords and whatnot- it very much is like an addiction and what you didn't need before, becomes this endless little chase. So you start tweaking everything, and though diminishing returns have set in, even the smallest changes can be very important if that is the small change you're after.
JoeESP9
ESL's & tubes since 83
For speakers I think the cost vs performance curve gets extremely steep above $10K. For TT's I think its around $2K and amps and preamps around $5K. I believe there is improvement above the prices I've given although IMO the price performance ratio is not equal. The more you pay the less difference there is for a given amount.
I mean IMO there a bigger performance difference (with speakers) between $7K and $10K than $10K and $20K. The returns diminish the higher you go.
I mean IMO there a bigger performance difference (with speakers) between $7K and $10K than $10K and $20K. The returns diminish the higher you go.