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Let's talk power/line conditioners...

Gang-Twanger

Resident Wharfedaliophool
Where I live, the wiring is pretty-sketchy, and I've come to the conclusion that a good power conditioner is in order. Not only do I think there's too much fluctuation, I also think it's likely affecting my frequency response (I would imagine).

Anyway, the Tripp Lite LC models are at the top of the list so far, but the one thing I'm worried about is the clicking. With all the noise my PC makes, I don't feel like adding to it, and I read at least one review that mentioned that it clicks on and off (That seems a strange feature). If it means I'd have to put the thing into another room, that would kind of defeat the purpose (or at least work against it).

So, I figured I better see what the experienced audiophilers have to say on the topic.

Thanks in advance...
 
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No audiophile here....however I use a Furman- Power Factor Pro. The three years I have had it consistent voltage has been delivered(live in rural area that can be problematic). No repairs as well.These are alittle pricey so I would do the usual searches online.Eprey was my source. Still lovin the W90's!
 
No audiophile here....however I use a Furman- Power Factor Pro. The three years I have had it consistent voltage has been delivered(live in rural area that can be problematic). No repairs as well.These are alittle pricey so I would do the usual searches online.Eprey was my source. Still lovin the W90's!

Thanks. I'll check that one out. The W90's are actually part of my concern. I'm sure the line fluctuations must be affecting their response to some degree, and as I've said in the past, I can hear more sonic potential in them. But I'm also concerned about the wear and tear on ALL of my gear, and buying a PROPER line conditioner is surely a step in the right direction.

But as I said in my first post, I'm also concerned about the noise floor, and silent switching (as as little hum as possible) within the line conditioner would certainly help if I can get it. When the time comes that I finally move, I am DEFINITELY considering the electrical/house wiring a top priority, but that's gonna' be a few months (unless by some weird stroke of luck I happen to find the perfect place before then), so I'd like to protect myself in the meantime. In fact, I'd really like to make a decision on a line conditioner within the next few days if possible and get some peace of mind.
 
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I thought I should emphasize something while this thread is still in it's infancy. I don't mind paying a little extra if I can get a silent-running unit. My noise floor in this place is already too high, and I really don't want to add to it, so if there's a good-working unit out there that DOES run nice and quiet, that would be a major plus.
 
I get it! My conditioner has not added any additional noise to my system.You talk alot about moving,sounds like you definitely have many good reasons to do so!:yes:
 
Furman and Panamax are owned by the same company. Either one would be a good contender. APC is another good choice. They have a battery backup surge protector that I had on my work computer that performed flawlessly.
 
I get it! My conditioner has not added any additional noise to my system.You talk alot about moving,sounds like you definitely have many good reasons to do so!:yes:

You ain't kidding. You wouldn't believe the BS I've had to deal with here. But the problem neighbors are finally out (Well, once they finish grabbing all their crap... They were taking their time, trying to stick it to the landlord while bugging me just a bit longer, but I don't see that lasting more than another week or so). This alleviates SOME of the problems, so I can stick it out here a little longer while I keep looking for something a lot better. But I still need to get this line/power conditioner situation handled while I'm here, and it can't hurt to have one even afterwards (Can you believe the neighbor was actually ripping holes in the walls with a claw hammer, trying to sabotage my outlets, not to mention my plumbing? He actually succeeded in taking out one of the kitchen outlets, and I'm positive he did something to take out my kitchen faucet... This is the level of shenanigans I've had to deal with here).

Anyway, any suggestions are much appreciated, the quieter the better.

By the way, after I see how the line conditioner works out, I might give one of these a shot. http://www.amazon.com/Schiit-SCH-16-Wyrd-USB-Decrapifier/dp/B00LFVMC9U/ref=pd_sim_267_39?ie=UTF8&refRID=03XYJBZFP03C11WKJC4V
 
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I'm using a Monster HTS 1600 that has been super. No spikes, and before I got it, I could hear a pop through my speakers when I turned o or off the light. Now nothing. I think they're about $120 new. G0t mine at a yardsale for $10. :yes::D
 
this is what I did. Have done three of these so far, using used 'n' cheap rack mount units purchased off the 'bay.

http://www.keysolutions.com/blogs/kenyee.nsf/d6plinks/KKYE-6N6KLF

Summary, in case the link ever goes dead

I have a Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua that I've modded with a Noctua NF-R8 80mm fan and a Noise Magic NMT-3. It's now damn near silent and still seems to run cool. I wouldn't run it at full load as the Noctua fan will push less CFM than the stock Delta fan but for keeping my stuff up and running through short brownouts it's great.

There is one special instruction, you need to cut the connector off the stock fan and splice it to a fan extension power cable to make this work because the connector and pinout on the Tripp-Lite unit will not work with a standard 3-pin fan. You also cannot unplug the fan as the Tripp-Lite unit supervises the fan. To connect standard PC fan to Tripp-Lite UPS - red to red, black to black, yellow to blue. Done. Quiet.

This is a true online, double conversion (always runs off the inverter) ostensibly true sine wave unit. Probably retailed for about $1K new but I've been able to pick one up used for about $100 or so whenever I needed one. Sometimes the batteries are still good, sometimes they are not.

I actually have a Sola unit scavenged from work waiting for batteries, but I don't know how "true sine wave" it is; info on that one is sketchy. Price was right though. Too bad you're not local otherwise I'd let you have it for the $6 that I paid for the plug I needed to buy to test it if you wanted to give it a try.
 
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I've had good success with my Furman M-8Dx conditioner, and it is silent. They can be had for a c-note.

furman-m_8dx-power-conditioner-with-digital-meter-_front-and-back_.jpg
 
Are you having voltage fluctuation? Do you have a multimeter and know how to test the wall for voltage?

In the summertime you are likely going to have more inconsistent voltages due to AC units turning on and off all the time. Voltage will change dependent on time of day, line load, etc. If you are experiencing high voltages, 135+, consistently, you should call the power company. It's a problem and it is their responsibility to fix it.

I am not familiar with the specifics of line conditioners, but have you thought about a high wattage isolation (1:1) transformer? I could be way off the mark here and someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I have a 500W step up transformer I use for all my European gear and it's served me well. When researching brands, I found a lot of negative reviews for TrippLite and their knockoffs. It's my understanding that most of that junk is made in China.
 
I use a Tripp Lite LC-1200 as prescribed by Dr. Sony6060 for $30 shipped. It has been absolutely silent and has lowered my noise floor considerably.
 
Recently I replaced my common power strip which was 7-8 years old. Bought a very decent Belkin power center. It was a "deal of the day" at Amazon. Just doing that made a noticeable difference. Don't think it was a placebo effect, as I had not even thought about the possibility that it would make a difference, until I noticed the entire system seemed more detailed. Never had any noise issues and still don't after get the power center. The joules rating on the new unit was 3000. The old one was 600. That was the main reason I bought it.
 
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Are you having voltage fluctuation? Do you have a multimeter and know how to test the wall for voltage?

In the summertime you are likely going to have more inconsistent voltages due to AC units turning on and off all the time. Voltage will change dependent on time of day, line load, etc. If you are experiencing high voltages, 135+, consistently, you should call the power company. It's a problem and it is their responsibility to fix it.

I am not familiar with the specifics of line conditioners, but have you thought about a high wattage isolation (1:1) transformer? I could be way off the mark here and someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I have a 500W step up transformer I use for all my European gear and it's served me well. When researching brands, I found a lot of negative reviews for TrippLite and their knockoffs. It's my understanding that most of that junk is made in China.

Yes. Honestly, I think it's mostly a problem with intermittent undervoltages, like when my fridge kicks on, I can see the light flicker (It really got noticeable this summer when the weather warmed up). I'm running a tube receiver, so I think a voltage regulator is definitely in order. I plan on having the electrical checked out, but I think a big part of it is just the crappy wiring in this place, which is why I'd like to get something that will insure clean, consistent voltage for my hi-fi and computer gear (Not a ton... Just a single tube receiver and a single PC... If everything goes well, I can get one for my kitchen area and run my fridge and laptop off it, but right now I want to start with the essentials).

Part of my problem with this is that I am not sure exactly what I need here. I keep reading about UPS, AVR, linear line conditioners, line filters, load regulators, power conditioners (with and without battery backup), linear filtering AC power sources, power centers, etc.

I need to figure out which direction I need to be heading, although I imagine some of those terms really just mean the same thing. But some of them don't, you know? I just want to be sure, and I'd like to do this right the first time and get what I really need. I've seen power conditioners that don't do much more than act as a power strip.
 
I use a Tripp Lite LC-1200 as prescribed by Dr. Sony6060 for $30 shipped. It has been absolutely silent and has lowered my noise floor considerably.

$30? Wow, that's cheap. Did you fleabay? I looked at the Tripp Lite ones, and I was thinking about the LC-2400. It's just that I was reading some of the Amazon reviews, and some people were talking about a clicking sound, and others mentioned other noises, so I wanted to get a better idea of what these things do as well as what they're expected to do. This subject is much more-complicated than I imagined, and with my electrical being the way it is here, I figured I should get to know this stuff a little better. I should have been looking into this 5 years ago.

A few people have mentioned about conditioners/regulators shutting down/off when the voltage reaches a certain point, which made me wonder about tube amps and how easy you can pop fuses and what not whenever the power goes off and then comes back on real quick, and I've been wondering if I WANT a conditioner with some kind of battery backup, or if I shouldn't consider the shutting down a problem (I suppose it's better than getting a huge power surge, although I understand nothing can stop a lightning surge, or at least that's what everybody says... Maybe I'm making too much of a non-issue).
 
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I also have a tripp lite LC-1200 $4 garage sale score. It clicks when the washing machine kicks on in the basement. My assumption is the circuitry detects the AC motor rush on the washer and does its conditioning magic to maintain voltage.
(not an expert, just my thoughts :)
 
Starting with the simple devices first.

I want to be very specific in general terms, that the following definitions are specifically, in general mostly accurate, except specifically when manufactures in general, specifically play fast and loose specifically in general with their general specific terminology and advertising claims, generally speaking. :D:D:D:D:D

Would a manufacturer do that? :scratch2::scratch2:

Basic surge protectors try to limit voltage spikes in the AC power line and do not provide any type of voltage regulation. And while some may have filtering to help remove unwanted electrical noise, this filtering may be of only the most basic kind.

Power filters, usually include surge protectors and add additional, more sophisticated filtering to help remove unwanted electrical noise.

Power conditioners may run a range of devices depending on marketing by the manufacture. The basic ones are simple power filters. The more sophisticated units may contain more comprehensive filtering to clean up the AC power.

They may include some form of voltage regulation, and be called an AVR (automatic voltage regulator) device and to be clear they will not function correctly if the voltage drops below a certain level.

Whether or not an AVR will meet the needs of the end user depends on the specific situation, the quality of the device and the actual range of voltage variation.

The ones that may have an issue with making a clicking sound use a simple stepped auto transformer to compensate for various windows or ranges of low and high voltage. They contain circuitry to sense the AC power voltage and direct the unit to select the appropriate voltage on the auto transformer to provide the most appropriate amount of voltage correction.

The clicking sounds that are heard are the relays used to select the voltage taps on the auto transformer. These devices are not uninterruptible power supplies and will shut down if the AC power line voltage goes low enough and or will not have enough regulation range to keep your voltage in the needed range.

Due to design and quality some will produce more noise and not all of them will have the same voltage adjustment windows or steps.

Under the category of locally regenerating (at the end user’s location) the sine wave AC power, are cheap UPS (uninterruptible power supplies) devices.

Since the sine wave AC power is locally regenerated it should be a clean and stable source of power, unaffected by unwanted noise on the AC power line and unwanted voltage fluctuations including the total interruption of the incoming AC power line.

One can move up the quality ladder to devices such as The Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua as mentioned by N8Nagel. His post, #9 in this tread, contains good information.

Basic surge protector devices and power line filter devices are usually rated for a 15 amp load (all though not all are) and as such should handle a refrigerator, but UPS devices and some devices similar to the Tripp-Lite device may not have the capacity to handle a high current device such as a refrigerator. It is important to consider the power and current ratings of these devices.

As you can see, you have received many suggestions, unfortunately several have not addressed your specific situation (too much fluctuation) in voltage, possibly because they do not understand your situation or they do not understand the functionality of the various devices.

If you are having AC power voltage fluctuations that are outside of normal operating voltages, that by definition eliminates the basic surge protectors and AC power line filters and some so called power conditioners. While they may help protect against voltage spikes and help to remove unwanted electrical noise, they will do nothing to stabilize varying AC line voltages.

For this you will need one of the devices that help to regulate the voltage. Some, as already mentioned do this in steps and not all steps are created equal. These are the devices that may produce the clicking sounds, some worse than others. To be clear some power conditioners, as defined by the manufacture, may contain an AVR.

Then there are devices that regenerate the AC power sine wave such as cheap UPS devices and the higher quality Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua type devices. These devices provide AVR, (automatic voltage regulation), spike protection and filtering of unwanted electrical noise and they do it mostly silently, although as N8Nagel mentioned there may be some cooling fan noise. The specifications for these device, may in some cases, specific there operating noise level.

To help you keep the terminology straight, it may help if you refer a specific device by its highest level of functionality. For instance the device referenced by N8Nagel is a a high quality UPS, not a surge protector that includes automatic voltage regulation.

As you move up the ladder of functionality for these devices, each higher level device usually contains (with some variation) the functionality of the devices below it.

While not everyone needs the full functionality of devices such as the Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua and other similar devices, and some of the other devices mentioned above may be adequate depending on the situation, it is hard to go wrong using a device like the Tripp-Lite above.

However you have added an additional requirement of supplying your refrigerator with clean, stable power and that adds the need to pay particular attention to the power and current rating of the device.
 
A million thanks, JBL Guy. You summed it up perfectly. I spent numerous hours today/tonight on Amazon and elsewhere looking at various power conditioners, AVR's, expensive home theater power centers, and voltage regulators from cheap to crazy-expensive, and like you said, you really need to check the fine print in order to be sure what your getting.

I'm 80-90% on the Tripp Lite units like the LC-1200 and LC-1800. The hum noise I read about seems to be an isolated thing where the units in question were probably defective. I still wonder about the clicking, as my situation is probably more-extreme than most (Like I said, it's not just about brownouts and that sort of thing... The wiring in this place is Mickey Mouse City, something I didn't even consider when I moved in like 8 years ago, even before I started down the vintage hi-fi road), but maybe I can hide the damn thing on the other side of the couch or something, unless it's like a loud ping-pong clacking sound... We'll see... I wonder what the return policies are like with this sort of device... Electrical-related stuff can be tricky, plus there's the "authorized dealer" part of it as well, so I'll have to keep that in mind).

I'm also looking at the Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua you and N8Nagel mentioned.

I've been trying to figure out whether I WANT the kind of device that shuts off automatically if the voltage dips below a certain point or if I need one that doesn't. Automatic shutoff is probably the way to go. I probably wouldn't be asking that question if it weren't for my tube-powered 800C receiver, but I suppose that's still a situation that calls for automatic shutdown in the event of REALLY-low/high dips and surges. Perhaps I'm reading too much into that part of it, but you know how tube rigs are when it comes to shutting off and then turning back on right away (as opposed to letting the tube gear cool down a bit before switching back on). Complicated stuff.

Anyway, thanks to everybody for the input on this. I really appreciate it. Gonna' keep at this and hopefully have something picked out within the next 24 hours. I've been thinking about Fleabay for this, but I'm also wondering if a full warranty isn't a better idea. We'll see.

I'm optimistic about what this thing will do for my system's performance. My biggest issue is a bump in my system's response that just shouldn't be there. It's at a particular frequency (and ONLY that frequency/pitch), and whenever a voice or instrument hits it where it's very-prominent in the mix, it sticks out like a sore thumb (It got worse as the temperature went up, but now, late at night, it's hardly noticeable. I fixed an issue with the mid pot on one of my W90's recently, which cleared up/cleaned up the response noticeably, but that frequency bump is still there, and I don't see it being the speakers OR my receiver (retubed/restored Fisher 800C and Wharfedale W90's). Both have been restored/recapped and are NOT known for this sort of issue, and considering the computer and DAC issues I've had in the past (and recently), it would certainly make sense. Besides, I've heard about what hinky electrical lines/outlets can do to a system's response. Anyway, the voltage regulator should help a lot regardless, but it'll be an awesome day if it fixes that particular frequency bump as well. That's been a thorn in my side.
 
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"I've been trying to figure out whether I WANT the kind of device that shuts off automatically if the voltage dips below a certain point or if I need one that doesn't. Automatic shutoff is probably the way to go. I probably wouldn't be asking that question if it weren't for my tube-powered 800C receiver, but I suppose that's still a situation that calls for automatic shutdown in the event of REALLY-low/high dips and surges. Perhaps I'm reading too much into that part of it, but you know how tube rigs are when it comes to shutting off and then turning back on right away (as opposed to letting the tube gear cool down a bit before switching back on). Complicated stuff."


No, the devices such as the Tripp-Lite device are UPS devices, that is uninterruptible power supply, they contain a rechargeable battery that will allow the devices connected to continue to operate until they are manually turned off in the case off in the case of the a very low dip and prolonged dip in the AC power line voltage, otherwise the output voltage will stay constant up to the capacity of the internal batteries and in the case of the Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua addition battery capacity may be added which will result in longer run time.

If I understand your situation correctly with your concern about your laptop, your tube type audio gear and your refrigerator and I wanted to design a system form myself that meets these needs, here is what I would do.

I would have two separate devices. An uninterruptible power supply like the Tripp-Lite SU1000RTXL2Ua device for your audio electronics including your tube type gear. Then no need to worry about low voltage and auto shutdown and your listening would not be interrupted.

And for the refrigerator, if your voltage sags are deep and repetitive, I would us a delay on restart device if your are concerned about it, so that if the voltage dropped below the safe operating point for the refrigerator, there would be a delay before power was replied to it.

Of course for a problem that severe, I would look into having the underlying issues repaired.

How some of this is implemented depends on specific things in terms of voltage sage and how often it happens and the severity of voltage spikes and unwanted electrical noise.

The power company will probably come out and put a device on your power line, in your dwelling that will measure the voltage sage, and the timing and frequency of the voltage sage and record any unwanted voltage spikes. They can even look at the quality of your AC power in terms of unwanted electrical noise.

I only have the general descriptions of what is happening at your location, so I am painting with a rather broad brush.

I have admitted this before, I am super pedantic and suffer from supper OCD, so my opinions have a certain built in bias. :D:D:D

So run with the big dogs or stay on the porch or from back in my day, in for a penny in for a pound. :D:D:D

I understand that this may not be practical for all situations, but is says a lot about my bias. :yes:
 
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