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Looking for phono pre upgrade

oldtexasdog

Well-Known Member
I am currently using my Carver BillD C1 phono input and was looking at options to improve the sound.

Been looking at a Fosgate Signature Phono preamp

Other suggestions?

Chain

Technics SL-1600 with Magami cables

Ortofon Bronze cart

choice of Carver 275 tube amp-M-500t MKII-M-1.0t MKII opt 2

Carver BillD C1

B&W 705's

True Sig Sub

I would like to keep cost of upgrades below 4K

Thanks Al
 
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Thanks!

I need to clarify my goals here.
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For a max 4k price I am looking to upgrade the TT system and that may or may not be adding a better phono pre or even a better TT?

For that amt. of hard earned scratch can I get a noticeable upgrade that would reflect the outlay?upload_2020-11-3_10-48-11.gif

Thoughts?
 
I have and have tried a few different phono preamps, including one for MM carts that I built from kit (and it sounds quite good). The best sounding phono pre that I have which also includes several gain and loading settings, is a Musical Surroundings Phonomena II. I use mine with a SUT, as I’m using a standard “low-output” (.4mV) MC cartridge and I think it sounds slightly better with the SUT inline, than with just setting the phono pre on a higher gain.

I’d recommend the Musical Surroundings Phonomena; any of them, from the first one to the whichever the latest version is (I have the original and a II). If you want to spend a little more, then you may consider their Nova phono preamp, which is a bit more refined than the Phonomena.
 
To improve upon your upgraded Carver will require a step change. A dual mono design offering really low noise floor might fit the bill. Suggest considering one of the better Sutherland models within that budget..
 
The Ortofon Bronze is what roughly, a $400 MM Cartridge with a 5mv output correct?
My thoughts would be, how far would you want to go, or really need to go money-wise if you stay in "MM Land"?

Now I know the Technics 1600 and 1600 MkII are pretty decent Tables, my one buddy has a MkII, and I'd reckon one could do a hell of a lot worse. And as well do better.

A cartridge and phono stage upgrade are good upgrades but how far can the 1600 go?
Many of the better Phono Stages are usually geared towards MC Cartridges, offering some varying degrees of adjustment of gain and loading, which of course the more adjustments for such, the better.

A previous poster mentioned Sutherland. Yep, all very nice phono stages in whatever price range, they are achievers. One might be able to score something like a really clean-mint Sutherland PhD for around $1200-$1400 or so. There is a 47K Ohm setting on it. And stock gain is from 45db to 60db.

Fine Phono-Stage, I have one. Let's say you want to delve into MC Land, the Sutherland I mention will handle anything from an $600 MC, and even a $10K MC admirably, your choice, and your money.

The question is, will the Technics 1600, and its Tonearm handle such?

Some food for thought, and your mention of a $4K spending limit. I'll say this:

With time, wisdom, patience, good selection of upgrades where they'll have the greatest effect, and of course luck and being at the right place at the right time, $4K could possibly take your system to a much higher level of sonics.

It might mean sell this to get that to work your way up the ladder, probably all of us have done such, I have done such a number of times.

With Phono Stages, Turntables, Cartridges, and Amps, Speakers, Digital.

Amps-Speakers might have the most profound effect. The places you'll likely take the largest beatings on are the Turntable, and Cartridge.

Knowing my buddy Jay in Sarasota, he probably bought his super clean 1600 MkII at a garage sale for $25-$35. Only problem he's had with it, were a sticky Mat that turned to glue and the belts for the cueing mechanism. I helped him on both counts.
 
Thanks markd51!
I feel that the amp and speaker part of the equation is at present taken care of with the B&W 705's and sub along with the amp selection I have. The upgraded Carver C1 is not a slouch either. Dead quite and the C1 has a well-regarded phono stage, low noise, configurable for capacitance on one of the inputs, RIAA accurate to +/- .25db.
Seems the difference between the MC and the MM is a little like one is a ballerina. Sure footed and precise, exact, complex, delicate foot placement and moves as light as a feather. While the MM is more like Fred Astaire. Precise and exact complex foot movements, with authority and expression. One is not better than the other just different and I may well like to go back to a MC.
Perhaps my road to an upgrade after reading your well placed thoughts would be better spent with a new TT?
Thanks
Such a conundrum???:idea:
 
The Fosgate Signature is a splendid phono preamp. With a London Decca Super Gold cartridge, it is an exceptionally revealing combination. Not sure how the Decca would do with your TT. It works with my SP-25. Any tonearm bearing play is a no-go with the Decca.
 
It sounds like you believe your Turntable, and possibly the Cartridge are the weak links in your system, and wish to concentrate specifically with those components to achieve better analog playback and fidelity.

You appear to be uncertain and/or reluctant about the removal of the Carver with its phono stage from the system. Such analog front end components of course have a important and real impact on the sound, even running the same Table and Cartridge.

I've noted such immediately as I went up the ladder with phono stages. When I first delved into MC Cartridges, and bought a Benz Micro Glider HO Cartridge back in the 90's, I was given a couple of phono stages to try in home audition by Jim Davis of MusicDirect. He said try them, whichever you like keep, bring the other back, or both if you don't like neither.

One was an Audio Alchemy, about the size of a Pack of Cigarettes, and the McCormack Micro Phono Drive, a bit more expensive unit. Both sounded initially pretty good, I thought the AA Unit sounded pretty dynamic, but kept the MCormack due to smoother sound. The AA Unit did seem a little raspy, raw around the edges.

Reckon it reflects that in a lot of instances, you usually do get what you pay for. Seems the same also applies for Phono Cartridges. The pricing on such seems to usually be spot on in regards to sonics. That a $600 Cartridge will outperform a $400 one, the $1000 Cartridge outperforming the $600 one, so on and so forth.

Not to say though, that the lesser cartridge doesn't hold merit and possess certain attributes-qualities that can personally please.

As for the Carver's Phono Stage, one would have to consider what level of adjustability is present for an MC Cartridge of choice? Let's say it has only 2 gain settings? One setting might possibly prove to be inadequate,
not enough gain, while the other overly hot and too much gain?

The old saying claims, that most MC Cartridges with an output over 1mv usually behave like an MM, meaning 47K Ohms loading might suffice just fine. And as well, 47K Ohms can be used for low output MC as well, but one might also not be getting the best from such a cartridge, let's say my ZYX Airy 3X with an output of I believe .24mv. On the Sutherland PhD, I'm either set at 100 or 200 Ohms, I forget which?
And 60db or 62db, and again I forget which?

I've heard some say in regards to loading that 47K Ohms with an MC is like letting loose the reigns of a horse. Such will be running "wide open" in effect, and just might very likely be too much of a good thing. Sonics might be overly rasp, tinny, thin, way too much treble, just seeming to run way too "hot" and shrill. That further loading then "tames" and smooths the sound, more even keeled across the sonic spectrum,

Usually with a Cartridge, once you buy such, that's it, you now own it. Should the Phono Stage not be compatible due to gain-loading, then you have an issue to resolve ($$$ spent yet again)

Sadly, it's often a purchase that can be sound unheard, and you're relying on specs, other's reviews, and while others might like something, we all have different tastes.

The Airy 3X Cartridge and my Sutherland PhD were both purchases sound unheard, but were luckily extremely great choices, and paired very well together.

With both having uncanny qualities of very low noise, the Cartridge with it's tiny exotic profile Stylus plays with extremely low groove noise, the Sutherland being battery powered and well isolated from both EMI and RFI, the pair together produced an ultra black background, virtually CD-Like. First time I paired the two together, and did a initial test needle drop, I heard nothing, and thought something isn't working, then I was floored and pretty startled when the sound came forth!

If you had a local audio shop or two, that can hold some advantage where you might be able to audition certain components? Walk into an Audio Dealer though, and start looking and pricing brand new Turntables and Cartridges, you'll likely get a case of severe sticker shock!

That happened to me one day back in the 90's on one occasion, and was wishing to buy a new Table, walked into a Linn Dealer on Chicago's north side, spotted what looked like a very nice LP-12 Table, lifted the Price Tag on it and was totally floored at the price, $5600! OMG! Considerably too rich for my blood at the time! Don't know what it all came with, and wasn't about to ask!

As for used, I'd avoid places like ebay like the plague. Places like Audiogon is a good place to seek out used equipment, I have dealt with a good number of people there, and every experience was very positive.

Many upgrade parts and components were bought there for my VPI Table, the PhD Phono stage came from there, and my ZYX Cartridge came from Mehran at Sorasound in Chicago, who is the USA's ZYX main Distributor. Purchased an SRA Isolation Base for my Table there. VPI SDS Speed Controller-Conditioner for my Table, new in box, better heavier Platter, VPI SAMA Motor, and various other trinkets.

Audiogon Sellers do highly cherish, and have rightfully earned their good feedback, not about to pull fast ones with their gear, and commonly good audiophiles who care about packing and precisely describing their equipment.

A better Cartridge within the Ortofon Line could be one simple way. If all else is fine, gain, loading options with what you have, you'll hear improvements, but they won't necessarily be night and day ones.

Look for more drastic changes and improvements, then yeah, another different Phono Stage, Cartridge brand-model, and even Table-Arm might likely be required.
 
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As for what's out there today in the Analog playback world, the choices are unbelievably vast! And also very expensive as well. It seems just in the past 10-12 years, prices for much of it has gone right through the roof!

Similarly, like Automobiles-Trucks, seen a new Dodge-Cummins Diesel 4-door 4x4 1 ton Truck a couple months ago, beautiful, and I tried guessing the price with the owner. I said $70,000. I was off by $13,000, that truck listed for $83,000!

Clearaudio, VPI, SME, heck, even a new Technics 1200 Table is big dollars.

With all that being said, I wouldn't shun, or disregard used equipment, provided a good price and savings, and performance and cosmetics that I, or yourself can live with.

I also own a Sunfire Sub, the True Sub MK-IV. Was bought brand new and I never abused it, barely used it in fact in my system. I went through hell 3 times with Sunfire with repairs, and having to ship them the entire Sub. Auto Turn-On kept going out. They were a nightmare. I then was able to fortunately ship just the Plate Amp to Bill Flannery, who used to work for Sunfire. He replaced just about every Cap, and Component on the Board, about 45 of them, and so far no more problems.
 
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