Looking for used DAC

[guitarman50]

I don't know much about DAC's but I'd like to get one to start listening to high res files from my computer. I'd like to connect it to my Pioneer SX5580 with Klipsch Cornwalls. I've been looking at some used DACS online that range from $200 to $300. Among the ones I've seen are the Cambridge Audio DACMagic, The Schiit bifrost, Peachtree DAC-IT and the Jolida FX Glass DAC. I've also been toying around with the idea of just all out springing for the Rega DAC. I like the Rega equipment as I have a Rega Apollo and a P3-24. My question is with my system am I better off with the lower priced DAC's or would my system be good enough to realize the benefits of the more expensive Rega DAC? I never see these Rega DAC's used.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

The bifrost seems to get better reviews than the DacMagic. Gets VERY-good reviews actually. Hard to tell these days. The external Dac market has RAPIDLY-evolved over the past 3 years, in big because of asynchronous-USB, but also due to the rising popularity of computer hi-fi.

I had been considering a DAC-upgrade via the used market recently, but now I don't feel the need anymore (Maybe later ).

 

[SimplySound]

I had been considering a DAC-upgrade via the used market recently, but now I don't feel the need anymore (Maybe later ).

Yeah, I'm just getting into using a media server.... loving being able to capture FLV feeds of ACL and the Sun Studio Sessions. Not HD, but probably 720P.

As for a DAC, I'm not sure what an external DAC has over my AVR. I'm running an NAD T775-HD, which is pretty well sorted. So not sure if you are into the AV realm, but if so, consider a good AVR. I run HDMI off the Media Server right into the AVR. Here's some info on the NAD....

The T-775HD includes the VM100 video module, the AM200 audio module, and a slew of digital and analog inputs and outputs, including one HDMI v1.3 output and four HDMI v1.3 inputs -- just enough for all my source components. There’s a rear data port for NAD’s optional iPod dock, and on the front a 3.5mm stereo phone jack that’s compatible with any MP3 player. The bank of 7.1-channel analog inputs on the rear can be connected to similarly equipped players. As well, 7.1 preamp outputs are available for connecting a subwoofer and higher-powered amplifiers, if desired.

Audyssey MultEQ XT room setup and correction are provided, with a twist. NAD has developed a custom, target frequency-response curve (the T-775 includes the standard Audyssey curve as well) to generate output response from your speakers that’s tailored to NAD’s preferences. The processing engine is a high-speed, 32-bit, 7.1-channel Aureus DSP chip from Texas Instruments. High-quality 24-bit/192kHz Burr-Brown DACs are used, along with 24/96 ADCs.

The AM200 includes Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, but adds to these three Audyssey products: Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, and MultEQ Pro.

Audyssey Dynamic EQ maintains high sound quality as the volume level decreases. Normally, when you lower the volume, the bass response becomes nonexistent, a situation that many AVRs attempt to correct with modes such as Late Night Theater. Audyssey Dynamic EQ differs from such "loudness" controls by analyzing the audio signal and making adjustments on the fly to preserve the bass level in relation to the treble, this made possible by the T-775’s high-powered TI Aureus processor.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

Yeah, I'm just getting into using a media server.... loving being able to capture FLV feeds of ACL and the Sun Studio Sessions. Not HD, but probably 720P.

As for a DAC, I'm not sure what an external DAC has over my AVR. I'm running an NAD T775-HD, which is pretty well sorted. So not sure if you are into the AV realm, but if so, consider a good AVR. I run HDMI off the Media Server right into the AVR. Here's some info on the NAD....

The T-775HD includes the VM100 video module, the AM200 audio module, and a slew of digital and analog inputs and outputs, including one HDMI v1.3 output and four HDMI v1.3 inputs -- just enough for all my source components. There’s a rear data port for NAD’s optional iPod dock, and on the front a 3.5mm stereo phone jack that’s compatible with any MP3 player. The bank of 7.1-channel analog inputs on the rear can be connected to similarly equipped players. As well, 7.1 preamp outputs are available for connecting a subwoofer and higher-powered amplifiers, if desired.

Audyssey MultEQ XT room setup and correction are provided, with a twist. NAD has developed a custom, target frequency-response curve (the T-775 includes the standard Audyssey curve as well) to generate output response from your speakers that’s tailored to NAD’s preferences. The processing engine is a high-speed, 32-bit, 7.1-channel Aureus DSP chip from Texas Instruments. High-quality 24-bit/192kHz Burr-Brown DACs are used, along with 24/96 ADCs.

The AM200 includes Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, but adds to these three Audyssey products: Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume, and MultEQ Pro.

Audyssey Dynamic EQ maintains high sound quality as the volume level decreases. Normally, when you lower the volume, the bass response becomes nonexistent, a situation that many AVRs attempt to correct with modes such as Late Night Theater. Audyssey Dynamic EQ differs from such "loudness" controls by analyzing the audio signal and making adjustments on the fly to preserve the bass level in relation to the treble, this made possible by the T-775’s high-powered TI Aureus processor.

Since my setup leans heavily on the 2ch vintage side, I mainly view my digital audio and my video as two separate entities. I have a 32" LED/LCD flatscreen, plus I recently picked up a nice 20" LED flatscreen for computer-use. I can use the 32" for movie-watching and use the 20" for simultaneous web-browsing/listening to music (Needed a smaller monitor that wouldn't block the speaker-paths, and I found one that suited the purpose very-well).

One of my chief concerns is keeping the preamp sound that I currently have. I need a tube/tubelike voicing for my W90's (Those speakers totally-feed off of it). I watch movies, but I listen to music at least 60-70% of the time, and I really don't have the space for two dedicated setups (i.e., serving two masters at the same time). I'm a 2ch guy at heart. Always have been, even back in the '80's when I was using a 100wpc Pioneer audio/video receiver.

But whatever it is about the new computer that's better/different, the sonic-improvement has been quite-large. I was thinking about it earlier. It reminds me of back when I had a car stereo setup and had just upgraded amps. That's what it sounds like. Everything is tighter, clearer, more-balanced/focused/dynamic, etc. What I initially was blaming on the room was actually due in part to the old computer.

Asynchronous-USB really kicked the external DAC market up several notches, plus external DAC's are great for people like me who want to use their existing system for a computer-based music-server setup. Then there's also the Head-Fi crowd as well. I don't watch regular TV anymore. Cancelled cable several years ago (Couldn't take it anymore... Reality shows being one of the top two reasons, and don't even get me started on the other). Considering the amount of money I've got into the whole audio/video/computer setup, I couldn't be happier though (Probably around $2000 at this point, but the hi-fi side of it is mostly vintage stuff).

 

[BadassBob]

Id look for a DAC with a tube section, those Cornies will love it. The Peachtree Decco is a great unit, I sold mine a couple years ago and had a very hard time parting ways with it. You may want to become a subscriber so you can post a WTB ad on Barter Town, youre sure to get a bite or 3 there :yes:

 

[BadassBob]

But whatever it is about the new computer that's better/different, the sonic-improvement has been quite-large. I was thinking about it earlier. It reminds me of back when I had a car stereo setup and had just upgraded amps. That's what it sounds like. Everything is tighter, clearer, more-balanced/focused/dynamic, etc. What I initially was blaming on the room was actually due in part to the old computer.

I think the difference is in the components on the motherboard and better power filtering. Up until a few years ago, most motherboards used electrolytic caps and voltage regulators with rather loose tolerances. Now the tolerances are tighter and the electrolytics have been dropped in favor of solid capacitors. I wish I had an old beater motherboard to test this theory on, but it sounds like youve got it covered :thmbsp: :yes:

 

[nj pheonix]

For a hundred bucks I think you should buy a schiit modi . It takes a few hours to open up. I suspect others do as well. You may go no further. Really impressive for the money. It gets you in the game if you decide to move up it gives you time to shop and you can put it in a bedroom system or sell and your not out much either way. My 2c. Good luck

 

[SimplySound]

Since my setup leans heavily on the 2ch vintage side, I mainly view my digital audio and my video as two separate entities.....

And I totally get this guys... I don't have vinyl and I don't roll tubes. If I did it would be a different whirld. Then the Pre-Amp and DAC make sense.

My whirld is a more integrated Solid State/Digital Realm. Not saying it's better or worse, just different parameters and requirements.

Guitarman wasn't clear on what his realm looks like so I suggested a "quality" AVR as an alternative to the DAC. Separates have advantages as well, but when you start getting into the arena of things like the upper end NAD AVR's, well you're now talking "HiFi"... the nice thing about "integrated" is it takes up less space with less interconnects and less clutter.

As for 2 Channel... the AVR approach let's me choose what I want. I can go "Bypass Mode" with no DSP Processing and feed that to either my mains or side surrounds in 2Ch Mode. Flexibility I guess is not a bad thing.

But again, for Ganger's requirements with his W90's, my solution is probably not the best solution.

I think the difference is in the components on the motherboard and better power filtering. Up until a few years ago, most motherboards used electrolytic caps and voltage regulators with rather loose tolerances. Now the tolerances are tighter and the electrolytics have been dropped in favor of solid capacitors. I wish I had an old beater motherboard to test this theory on, but it sounds like youve got it covered :thmbsp: :yes:

That and the audio card outputs have really improved over the years. To the point that separate Soundcards are pretty much obsolete because the integrated Sound Processors are so good. Not sure how your old system was integrated Ganger, but yeah, I could see if you were doing older Digital Coax connections and you are running USB now you are basically processing Digital HD Audio at that point. Doesn't get any better than that!

 

[guitarman50]

Guitarman wasn't clear on what his realm looks like so I suggested a "quality" AVR as an alternative to the DAC.

I have a 70's Pioneer SX5580 receiver, Cornwall Klipsch Verticals. I just wanted a DAC that would connect my computer to the Pioneer receiver so I can play my hi res files. My other 2 sources are a Rega P3-24 and a Rega Apollo. So I figured I would match that quality with something decent so not total entry level. I figured on a budget of about $300 for used. Although I am skirting with the idea of just going all out for the Rega DAC which costs way more and probably have to buy new. I'm just wondering if I'm going to see much benefit from going with the Rega DAC with my system. In other words is the Rega DAC a bit too audiophile for the equipment I have and am I better off staying with the $300 budget?

 

[SimplySound]

I have a 70's Pioneer SX5580 receiver, Cornwall Klipsch Verticals. I just wanted a DAC that would connect my computer to the Pioneer receiver so I can play my hi res files. My other 2 sources are a Rega P3-24 and a Rega Apollo. So I figured I would match that quality with something decent so not total entry level. I figured on a budget of about $300 for used. Although I am skirting with the idea of just going all out for the Rega DAC which costs way more and probably have to buy new. I'm just wondering if I'm going to see much benefit from going with the Rega DAC with my system. In other words is the Rega DAC a bit too audiophile for the equipment I have and am I better off staying with the $300 budget?

Well that explains it... if you are spinning vinyl and feeding it to the Pioneer then a DAC is the way to go for feeding the Computer to that! :yes:

But there are other options as well, like integrating your TT to a Phono-Pre and sending the analog output to an AVR. Then go Computer to AVR via HDMI, so there are many roads to Rome! One thing to think about on this road is "Digitizing" your vinyl collection!

Another nice thing about an AVR is you can integrate Video and Audio if you are so inclined. And "TV/Movies" are only part of the picture. Concert Videos are what I'm after. I've configured my Computer to capture streams of Austin City Limits. I can "archive" them and watch them anytime over and over even once they have been dropped from the site. This has been a really cool "revelation" of what a "Media Server" can do for my realm!!! :thmbsp:

 

[guitarman50]

Well that explains it... if you are spinning vinyl and feeding it to the Pioneer then a DAC is the way to go for feeding the Computer to that! :yes:

But there are other options as well, like integrating your TT to a Phono-Pre and sending the analog output to an AVR. Then go Computer to AVR via HDMI, so there are many roads to Rome! One thing to think about on this road is "Digitizing" your vinyl collection!

Another nice thing about an AVR is you can integrate Video and Audio if you are so inclined. And "TV/Movies" are only part of the picture. Concert Videos are what I'm after. I've configured my Computer to capture streams of Austin City Limits. I can "archive" them and watch them anytime over and over even once they have been dropped from the site. This has been a really cool "revelation" of what a "Media Server" can do for my realm!!! :thmbsp:

I have 2 separate systems. I have my 2 channel set up that I've described and my AVR set up that consists of an Integra 6.3 receiver. I've got a computer connected to the internal DAC of this receiver and I'm quite happy with it. I watch movies from there and I do listen to music while in that room.
However when I'm in my office I'd like to listen to my music files from that computer. Hence why I'd like a DAC connected to my Pioneer. It is one of my plans to eventually digitize all my vinyl but its unlikely I'll get rid of my turntable. I've tossed the idea around occasionally but there are some vinyl I will never get rid of and occasionally like to spin it, even if I have it digitized.
However a DAC would make my Apollo unnecessary as I'd have no reason to really keep it.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

And I totally get this guys... I don't have vinyl and I don't roll tubes. If I did it would be a different whirld. Then the Pre-Amp and DAC make sense.

My whirld is a more integrated Solid State/Digital Realm. Not saying it's better or worse, just different parameters and requirements.

Guitarman wasn't clear on what his realm looks like so I suggested a "quality" AVR as an alternative to the DAC. Separates have advantages as well, but when you start getting into the arena of things like the upper end NAD AVR's, well you're now talking "HiFi"... the nice thing about "integrated" is it takes up less space with less interconnects and less clutter.

As for 2 Channel... the AVR approach let's me choose what I want. I can go "Bypass Mode" with no DSP Processing and feed that to either my mains or side surrounds in 2Ch Mode. Flexibility I guess is not a bad thing.

But again, for Ganger's requirements with his W90's, my solution is probably not the best solution.



That and the audio card outputs have really improved over the years. To the point that separate Soundcards are pretty much obsolete because the integrated Sound Processors are so good. Not sure how your old system was integrated Ganger, but yeah, I could see if you were doing older Digital Coax connections and you are running USB now you are basically processing Digital HD Audio at that point. Doesn't get any better than that!

The weird thing is that I was bypassing the computer's audio software and soundcard (and even bypassing the Windows preamp/mixer/whatever). The only thing left was the performance of the USB-hub setup plus the processor and OS. Knowing the build-quality/parts-quality of the average computer, I wanted to keep as much of it out of the loop as possible, but apparently that wasn't enough. My laptop was basically entry-level, but for $350 on sale at Staples for a new, full-on laptop (and not a refurb like Wal Mart sells), I wasn't complaining. But man, when I switched the new desktop into music-server duty, the difference in sound was like someone came in and removed all my W90's shortcomings. It was that noticeable. Better in every way. As a laptop, it worked great (and is STILL great after more than 3 years), but as a music-server? Meh', not as great.


TO GUITARMAN50: - It sounds like you would do well with something like the bifrost (Even the Modi is supposed to be amazingly-good for the price). External DAC quality has vastly-improved over the last 3-4 years, and it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as before to get great sound-quality. I use an HRT MSII ($150 new) with my main 2channel hi-fi setup (Sansui 2000x into early W90's), and that thing has been everything the reviews promised and then some (They make a nicer model called the MSII+, which sells for about twice as much... I may upgrade to that at some point, but I keep getting more and more improvement out of the MSII, so I'm sticking with it for now... Great, little 24/96 DAC... The difference in sound-quality between 16/44 and 24/96 audio files is very-noticeable in my system at this point).

But if you're going to go the external DAC route, you're going to want to take necessary steps to bypass all the Windows junk that clogs up the signal/bitstream (as well as making the necessary changes in the SETTINGS section on your computer). This makes quite a noticeable difference. I've also found that it helps to choose a music-player program that doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles (Foobar is a great choice for a real meat-and-potatoes digital-music-player program for sure... Clutter-free and very-powerful).

 

[guitarman50]

TO GUITARMAN50: - It sounds like you would do well with something like the bifrost (Even the Modi is supposed to be amazingly-good for the price). External DAC quality has vastly-improved over the last 3-4 years, and it doesn't cost anywhere near as much as before to get great sound-quality. I use an HRT MSII ($150 new), and that thing has been everything the reviews promised and then some (They make a nicer model called the MSII+, which sells for about twice as much... I may upgrade to that at some point, but I keep getting more and more improvement out of the MSII, so I'm sticking with it for now... Great, little 24/96 DAC... The difference in sound-quality between 16/44 and 24/96 audio files is very-noticeable in my system at this point).

But if you're going to go the external DAC route, you're going to want to take necessary steps to bypass all the Windows junk that clogs up the signal/bitstream (as well as making the necessary changes in the SETTINGS section on your computer). This makes quite a noticeable difference. I've also found that it helps to choose a music-player program that doesn't have a lot of bells and whistles (Foobar is a great choice for a real meat-and-potatoes digital-music-player program for sure... Clutter-free and very-powerful).

The biifrost I'm looking at is the non usb. So I guess I'd have to get a sound card with toslink.
As for music players I'm using JRiver and really like the way it organizes things. I've not had any problems with it on my HT setup using the receivers internal DAC.

 

[Gang-Twanger]

The biifrost I'm looking at is the non usb. So I guess I'd have to get a sound card with toslink.
As for music players I'm using JRiver and really like the way it organizes things. I've not had any problems with it on my HT setup using the receivers internal DAC.

If you need a USB hookup, then you will surely want a DAC with asynchronous-USB transfer. Seems to get the most out of a USB connection. That said, a weak USB-hub setup could be a factor in sound-quality with USB-compatible external DAC's (And DAC's with multiple connection options don't always put as much into the design of the USB connection... Some sound noticeably-better via HDMI/SPDIF than they do via USB... Some don't). That might not be the sole reason for the recent sonic-improvements of my setup, but clearly the computer had a hard time handling a WD My Book and the HRT DAC on the same USB hub setup (I used an externally-powered USB hub for the DAC and connected the external hub to one of my laptop's USB inputs, and then I had the My Book connected to one of the other USB-inputs on my laptop... I had even giving the My Book and my DAC their own individual external hubs, but an external hub didn't seem to make a difference for the My Book... It DID, however, make a HUGE difference with the HRT DAC, so who's to say where the weakness existed on my laptop). I only had USB to work with at the time, so I chose the HRT MSII for the simple fact that it was designed specically for that purpose (Well, that and the reviews). My new desktop computer has HDMI (and I think S/PDIF), but I'm sticking with the HRT DAC.

I know lots of DJ's use laptops in their setups, but I've met a lot of DJ's that did not have the best ears for sound-quality. Perhaps my laptop was just weaker than most in all areas, but the specs for it weren't that bad, considering the price I paid). Who knows. Anyway, I just wanted you to understand exactly where I'm coming from in regards to my own situation and the possible reasons for the improvements.

 

[mnilan]

Guitarman:
There is a Schiit Bifrost on Agon for just over three hundred. I've been using one of those with a Yamaha CA-1010 from my iMac since November. Sweet...
Good luck,
Mike

 

[guitarman50]

Guitarman:
There is a Schiit Bifrost on Agon for just over three hundred. I've been using one of those with a Yamaha CA-1010 from my iMac since November. Sweet...
Good luck,
Mike

Does it have USB? The one I was looking at on CAM was $290 (and close enough for me to pick up in person) but was the non USB model.

 

[Ratamacue]

FWIW - I just picked up the Musical Fidelity V-DAC II for $200 shipped from Crutchfield, thought that was a heck of a good deal. Also on audiogon there are a couple for $250 (new).

I doubt a DAC going to make any difference in my system, but its one of those things I wanted to try and see for myself.