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Low output MC vs. High output MC

jdwk

AK Subscriber
Subscriber
is one better than the other? or is it just that High output MC carts can be used on standard phonostages in most receivers? I was thinking of trying am MC cart and I havent ever heard one. But I have read that MC cart design is basicly better than MM basic design on principle? have any of you had an MC and went back to using MM for sound reasons? I know that you cant replace a styli in an MC.
 
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IMO more cons than pros:

More expensive.

Stylus not replaceable. (more than likely) **I edited that**

You need a phono amp capable of the really low input.

Due to price you almost need two head-shells/carts to play back you good/mint vinyl and a second one to play back those not so great thrift store/garage sale finds. Since I wouldn't wanna be dropping my $400+ cart on a less than pristine record.
 
There are some fairly reasonable High output Moving Coil Cartridges available - Denon's DL110 is a buy at around $100! In my experience A moving coil will present a different experience than a MM, although their are some very good MM cartridges available. The stylus cannot be replaced, but can be re-tipped. Many feel the best moving coils are Low output, but these will require a preamp, or step up transformer to work in a MM Phono input. Is it a more costly trip? Yes, but one well worth pursuing! IMHO
Regards,
Jim
 
The Ortofon MCP-X1 is available for around $70, if you know where to look. A lot of good styli cost more than that...
 
A slight correction, Audio Technica 31e is a LOMC and has a removeable stylus. It has excellent sound. The Denon DL-160 is a HOMC and it has a non removeable stylus but equally excellent sound. My three Pioneer PL series TTs all have HOMC cartridges and all with removeable stylii and all sound very good, the PL05 has the same cart as the PL-44FS so it was upgraded at some point, The PL88FS has the TOTL cart.

The AT and the Denon are mounted in headshells for my PX-2 and can be swapped easily for comparison purposes.
 
I'm a very happy HOMC user. Currently running an Ortofon MC3 Turbo. I started out in this hobby 32 years ago with non-replaceable stylii B&O MCs and switched over to HOMCs. When I amortize $300 for a cartridge over 1500 hours that's $0.20 an hour so who cares? I like the way they sound.
 
i love the denon dl 160 h/o m/c...imho soundstage is different,than mm cart.mine was $149..also because the needle tracks very low in the groove,acurate tracking,low surface noise ,so scratches are not as noticable..i promise you'll love it..
 
Since no one else here will tell you what you wanted to know, it's up to me.:D Given the same manufacturer, the same stylus shape and cantilever design, a low output MC should always perform better than a high output MC, leaving out any possible effects from amplifying or stepping up the voltage from the low output. The reason is simple physics - the coils on the end of the cantilever are far smaller and much lighter, due to less turns of wire, and so the stylus has a much easier job of moving them, because of less inertia. That means that the LOMC should always track better and sound better than HOMC cartridges, because of the lower moving mass. Winding those small coils does increase the price, as they are often hand wound, and there is the disadvantage that the voltage needs to be raised more - it's often about a tenth of the output of HOMC cartridges. If you can afford it, and have a suitable step up transformer, head amp, or MC phono stage, then I'd recommend a LOMC in preference to a HOMC.

Another disadvantage of LOMC cartridges is often weight - to counteract the much smaller coils, in an attempt to keep voltage up, most makers use much larger fixed magnets in their LOMC designs, which means they are usually heavier than either HOMC or MM cartridges. But if you look at the range of cartridges produced by manufacturers who produce HOMC and LOMC models (eg Denon and Ortofon), the LOMC models are usually always the best, and have the widest frequency response, because of the much lower moving mass (stylus, cantilever and coils). They are also better than the best MM/MI models, for the same reason.

I own plenty of cartridges, including a number which were the best in the relevant class that the manufacturer made, including MM, MI and LOMC, and if I had to choose the most accurate and best sounding, I'd happily leave the MM/MI models to others, and choose a LOMC.

-Don
 
HypnoToad(and others):
I had posted a while back about getting the 'cartridge swap itch', and have added the DL-110 to my short list, which also includes:
1. LP Gear AT95HE-$150
2. Nagoka MP-110- $110
3. LP Gear Deft II- $100
4. Ortofon 2M Red-$100

thus, the Denon fits into the price range nicely. What, specifically, about the high-output DL-110 do you find good(or bad, if there are notable negatives)?
 
It has plenty of tight extended bass, the mid range is very smooth and the highs silky.

But then again I have nothing to directly compare it to at the moment.

You know it's a shame we all don't live closer together to try each others gear. It would make life a lot easier if you could actually audition something on your own setup to see how it sounds.

My amp has a low output moving coil phono stage and I would love to try one out but spending hundreds of dollars on something you make not like is scary.

I would also like to try out the Grado's as well but it's the same thing.
 
As ETI5000 (Don) said tradeoffs...tradeoffs ! One other bit to keep in mind is that the lower one goes in output of a cartridge the the greater the gain is needed and thus most inexspensive phono-pre's don't cut it, gain noise becomes the issue, again, IMO.

one can have his cake and eat it too....... 'medium output' MC's , for me my current fav is the VPI / DynaVector 20x (1 millivolt ouput)
 
Since no one else here will tell you what you wanted to know, it's up to me.:D Given the same manufacturer, the same stylus shape and cantilever design, a low output MC should always perform better than a high output MC, leaving out any possible effects from amplifying or stepping up the voltage from the low output. The reason is simple physics - the coils on the end of the cantilever are far smaller and much lighter, due to less turns of wire, and so the stylus has a much easier job of moving them, because of less inertia. That means that the LOMC should always track better and sound better than HOMC cartridges, because of the lower moving mass. Winding those small coils does increase the price, as they are often hand wound, and there is the disadvantage that the voltage needs to be raised more - it's often about a tenth of the output of HOMC cartridges. If you can afford it, and have a suitable step up transformer, head amp, or MC phono stage, then I'd recommend a LOMC in preference to a HOMC.
!
Another disadvantage of LOMC cartridges is often weight - to counteract the much smaller coils, in an attempt to keep voltage up, most makers use much larger fixed magnets in their LOMC designs, which means they are usually heavier than either HOMC or MM cartridges. But if you look at the range of cartridges produced by manufacturers who produce HOMC and LOMC models (eg Denon and Ortofon), the LOMC models are usually always the best, and have the widest frequency response, because of the much lower moving mass (stylus, cantilever and coils). They are also better than the best MM/MI models, for the same reason.

I own plenty of cartridges, including a number which were the best in the relevant class that the manufacturer made, including MM, MI and LOMC, and if I had to choose the most accurate and best sounding, I'd happily leave the MM/MI models to others, and choose a LOMC.

-Don
thanks! thats exactly what I wanted to know! thanks to all who replied. This site is always helpfull.
 
I agree that its a matter of tradeoffs -- I'm a fan of LOMCs, but you need an extra stage of amplification or a transformer, and if that isn't implemented well, or if it doesn't suit the cartridge you are using, the result may be worse than a HOMC or MM (and by worse I mean relative to the taste of a LOMC lover, not a categorical statement about absolute quality). Also very often LOMCs and HOMCs are less compliant than MMs, so they need massier arms, and both tend to feed more energy into the arm, so the bearings need to be stiffer, and arm resonances are excited more, so they need better arms than a MM. So just slapped into any arm, the best MC may sound worse than a MM would in that arm.
Synergy is a very big part of achieving good sound, and getting it right is a case by case kind of thing, and so a well set up MM, even a cheap one, may sound better than a poorly set up MC of the highest quality. Or vice versa. I do think its probable that its easier and cheaper to achieve quite good sound with MMs -- particularly LOMC need a lot of involvement to get the best out of them. And not everyone thinks that they actually sound better, or are worth the extra effort and expense, but if one does, it will be worth that effort and expense.
 
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I agree that its a matter of tradeoffs -- I'm a fan of LOMCs, but you need an extra stage of amplification or a transformer, and if that isn't implemented well, or if it doesn't suit the cartridge you are using, the result may be worse than a HOMC or MM (and by worse I mean relative to the taste of a LOMC lover, not a categorical statement about absolute quality). Also very often LOMCs and HOMCs are less compliant than MMs, so they need massier arms, and both tend to feed more energy into the arm, so the bearings need to be stiffer, and arm resonances are excited more, so they need better arms than a MM. So just slapped into any arm, the best MC may sound worse than a MM would in that arm.
Synergy is a very big part of achieving good sound, and getting it right is a case by case kind of thing, and so a well set up MM, even a cheap one, may sound better than a poorly set up MC of the highest quality. Or vice versa. I do think its probable that its easier and cheaper to achieve quite good sound with MMs -- particularly LOMC need a lot of involvement to get the best out of them. And not everyone thinks that they actually sound better, or are worth the extra effort and expense, but if one does, it will be worth that effort and expense.

The compliance can vary completely to the highest or lowest no matter output voltage.
There is no connection to LOMC there.

It can be checked out here: http://www.cartridgedb.com/

"dolph"
 
There may be no theoretical reason that MCs could not have as high compliance as MMs, but in practice no MC comes close to the compliance of V15s or XLMs, and most are low compliance.
 
While most MC cartridges are relatively low compliance, there are some which are high compliance, notably the better models from Denon. The DL-304 tracks at 1.2±0.2g, and their superb boron cantilever DL-1000A from the 80's tracked at 0.8±0.1g. I'm sure there are others around with quite high compliance and low tracking weights. I don't know of any reason why they couldn't be high compliance, unless it's so they control the movement of the coils so they don't get squashed or otherwise damaged.:scratch2:

-Don
 
I was aware there were MCs that claimed to be useable at slightly lower than a gram tracking force -- it seems to me that some of the Satins claimed to work at .75 grams, but my impression is that they invariably sounded better at the top of the specified range. My point was less that its impossible to make a high compliance MC (though I suspect that the stiffness of the leads to the coils forces a lower limit on tracking force), but that almost all of them are moderate or low compliance, and they won't sound their best used in low mass sloppy bearing arms. No doubt there are exceptions to this general rule, but I was trying to give general advice.
And just to make the point -- I think I remember that some of the Empires claimed they could track at a 1/4 of a gram -- I also think it was universally thought that they couldn't, but that's true of a lot of claimed lower limits on tracking force -- and no MC that I am aware of comes close, even in the realm of advertising optimism.
 
Well, I can say that my DL-304 tracks OK at 1.2g, and Denon did give a range of 0.7-0.9g for the DL-1000A, so it should have been OK at 0.8g. I'm not sure that I'd run any of my cartridges (eg Shure V15VMR or M91ED, Stanton 881S) at 0.75g, where it's at the bottom of the range. (OK, so the M91ED stays in the drawer most of the time.:D) Most cartridges work best somewhere near the top of the range, but Denon usually gives a fairly small tracking force range, which is probably more realistic than many manufacturers. I suppose as you say, the stiffness and length of the wires from the coils would have some bearing on things as well, although I suspect that the wires are very fine. I just hope they are nice and flexible, so they don't break.:D

-Don
 
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